Hi Davyman,


I will post a very good teaching on rom. 7 by Charles Leiter. I have come to this revelation of Rom 7 similar to Mr. Leiter before I read his teachings on it, but I will post His teaching because He is a gifted teacher and can explain it much better than I can. You can also find His sermons on S.I. too.

*Delete Link*

I also highly recommend his book "justication and regeneration". You can order that from HeartCry.

God Bless, Lisa

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Lisa

I deleted the link in my last post because I just remember that Greg does not want us to put links down.

Here's Leiter's teaching I paste and copied. I believe Dante will be edified with this teaching too. There is victory in Christ!

God Bless, Lisa


To attempt to deal with the controversies surrounding Romans 7 would take an entire book. Only a few guidelines for its interpretation can be suggested here:

1. Romans 7 flows directly from Romans 6, continuing and expanding upon the themes that are introduced there. According to Romans 6, Christians have “died to sin”Rom 6:2,11 by virtue of their union with Christ and have therefore been “freed”Rom 6:7, 18, 22 from it, so that sin no longer has “dominion”Rom 6:14 (Gk. “dominion,” “rule”) over them. The result of this death to sin is “service”Rom 6:22 to God that brings forth “fruit”Rom 6:21-22 (Gk. “fruit”) unto sanctification. Paul repeats this pattern of triumph in Romans 7: Christians have “died to law”Rom 7:4 by virtue of their union with Christ and have therefore been “freed”Rom 7:6, 2-3 from it, so that law no longer has “dominion”Rom 7:1 (Gk. “dominion,” as in 6:14) over them. The result of this death to law is “service”Rom 7:6 to God that brings forth “fruit”Rom 7:4 unto God. In short, Paul has been “soaring”
in Romans 6, and he continues to soar in Romans 7!

The real purpose of Romans 7 is to explain and expand upon Paul’s statement in 6:14: “For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace.” According to this verse, our deliverance from the dominion of sin is a direct result of the fact that we are no longer “under the law.” The first question to be answered is, “How has it come to pass that Christians are no longer ‘under the law’?” Paul answers this question in 7:1-4. Christians have passed out of the realm of law, having died to it by virtue of their union with Christ. The second question to be answered is, “Why is freedom from law necessary in order to secure our deliverance from the reign of sin?” Or, conversely, “Why is freedom from sin’s reign impossible for all who are still under law?” Paul answers this question in 7:5-25. All who are still “under law” are also still “in the flesh.” (v.5) But law actually stirs up and strengthens sin’s dominion over those who are in the flesh, leaving them in a state of bondage and death. (v.5, 7-25)
2. It is absolutely vital to realize that Paul thinks in terms of two and only two groups—those who are “under law” (“in the flesh”) and those who are “under grace” (“in the Spirit”).(pp. 96-98) The characteristics of these two groups are summarized both before (7:5-6) and after (8:1-4) Paul’s discussion in Romans 7:7-25. This means that in v.14-25, Paul is not describing a “carnal Christian” who has not yet “passed into Romans 8,” as the “deeper life” view of Romans 7 would tell us. All Christians are “in” Romans 8, just as all Christians are “in” Romans 6 and “in” Romans 7:6.

3. Paul has already described in detail the state of every Christian in Romans 6 and in Romans 7:1-6. We cannot ignore this description when we come to the last half of Romans 7. According to Romans 6 and Romans 7:1-6, all Christians have been “freed from sin” and have become “slaves of righteousness.”Rom 6:18 “Sin shall not be master over” Christians, for they are “not under law, but under grace.”Rom 6:14 Christians have been “joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, that they might bear fruit for God.”Rom 7:4 They are “alive from the dead.”Rom 6:13 They are no longer “in the flesh.”Rom 7:5 They “serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.”Rom 7:6

The view that Romans 7:14-25 is a description of “the Christian at his best, even of Paul at the time of writing” thus flies directly in the face of everything Paul has said up to this point. How can we read Romans 6 and 7:1-6 and still contend that all true Christians are actually “of flesh, sold into bondage to sin”!Rom 7:14

It is highly significant that this view of Romans 7 has led to the “wretched man” concept of the Christian life, where “wretchedness” and spirituality are almost equated, and the more holy we become, the more “wretched” we are. In the words of one writer: “This moan, ‘O wretched man that I am,’ expresses the normal experience of the Christian, and any Christian who does not so
moan is in an abnormal and unhealthy state spiritually. The man who does not utter this cry daily is either so out of communion with Christ, or so ignorant of the teaching of Scripture, or so deceived about his actual condition, that he knows not the corruptions of his own heart and the abject failure of his own life.”A. W. Pink, “The Christian in Romans 7” “The one who is truly in communion with Christ, will…emit this groan…daily and hourly.”Pink

It is true that in this day of glib “easy-believism” and shallow repentance multitudes of professing “Christians” desperately need a revelation of their own inner depravity and corruption. In the case of many, this would lead to bitter weeping Zech 12:10 and genuine conversion. But any true child of God who has traveled very far on the pilgrim pathway already knows quite a bit about his own wretchedness and vileness apart from the transforming power of Christ. Instead of praying that God would give us “such a view of [our] own depravity and unworthiness that [we] may indeed grovel in the dust before Him,”Pink would it not be more Scriptural to ask God for such a view of Christ’s resurrection life in us Eph 1:18-23 3:14-21 and our new nature in Him Col 3:9-13 that we might soar in the heavenlies and joyfully serve Him in newness of life?

Some theologians have tried to escape this “wretched Christian” view of Romans 7 by saying that even though Paul is speaking here of his own present experience as a believer, he is merely describing the fact that “no Christian is as holy as he wants to be.” Romans 7, according to this view, teaches only that “the Christian’s reach always exceeds his grasp” and that during this lifetime the Christian “cannot arrive at perfection.” All these statements are undoubtedly true, but they do not do justice to the degree of failure and misery evident in this passage. Paul is clearly describing here (to use his own words) a state of “wretchedness,”Rom 7:24 a state of “bondage,”Rom 7:14 and a state of inability Rom 7:18-19 to “do good.” In other words, the man of Romans 7 is not just battling with sin but utterly defeated by it, in stark contrast with Paul’s description of all true Christians in Romans 6 and Romans 7:1-6.
4. Romans 6 & 7 are structured around four questions and their corresponding answers. At the end of Romans 5, Paul makes two shocking statements that require defense and clarification. The first is that “the Law came in that the transgression might increase,” and the second is that “where sin increased, grace abounded all the more.” (v.20) Paul expects these statements to be misunderstood and distorted by others, so he sets out to clarify and defend them in chapters six and seven. He does this in terms of four questions and their corresponding answers. (6:1; 6:15; 7:7; 7:13) Each of these question-answer sections follows a very specific pattern. First, Paul poses the anticipated misunderstanding or distortion of his position. He then follows with a strong denial (“May it never be!”) and a brief summary answer to the misunderstanding. This brief answer is then clarified and expounded in the verses that follow. This pattern is invariable throughout Romans 6-7:

Romans 6:1—Question: “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase?” Strong denial: “May it never be!” Brief answer: “How shall we who died to sin still live in it?” Fuller explanation of brief answer: v.3-14.

Romans 6:15—Question: “What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?” Strong denial: “May it never be!” Brief answer: “Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey…?” Fuller explanation of brief answer: v.17-23.

Romans 7:7—Question: “What shall we say then? Is the Law sin?” Strong denial: “May it never be!” Brief answer: “On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, ‘You shall not covet.’” Fuller explanation of brief answer: v.8-12.

Romans 7:13—Question: “Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me?” Strong denial: “May it never be!” Brief answer: “Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.” Fuller explanation of brief answer: v.14-25.

This is the setting of v.14-25! Verse 14 does not begin a new and entirely unrelated theme, as some have supposed. The subject being dealt with in this section is not “the immature Christian’s failure to walk in the Spirit” or “the mature Christian’s continuing struggle with remaining sin.” Rather, the subject here is “the goodness of the Law, in spite its effects upon those who are in the flesh.” In this connection, it is very significant that v.14 begins with
the word “for” and is immediately followed (twice!) by the word “for” in v.15.

5. Romans 7:14-25 flows from and is a continuation of Paul’s discussion in v.7-13 of the “man to whom the commandment has come.” In v.5 Paul describes the condition of those who are “in the flesh” and “under law”: “For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.” The key words here are “Law,” “sin,” and “flesh.” These three words from v.5 will form the heart of Paul’s discussion throughout the rest of the chapter.

In v.7-12 Paul begins to explain his statement in v.5 by reference to his own experience prior to conversion. There was a time when Paul lived in a state of complacent self-satisfaction: “I was once alive.” (v.9) He thought he was doing fine in keeping the Law: “As to the righteousness which is in the Law…found blameless.”Phil 3:6

But then a major turning point came in Paul’s life. By the working of God’s Spirit, “the commandment came” to him. He began to realize how deep and exacting the Law’s requirements really are and how impossible it was for him to fulfill those requirements. “Sin became alive,” and Paul “died” under the terrible conviction of his sinfulness. (How long this went on, we do not know, but we do know that before he ever met the risen Christ on the road to Damascus, it was already “hard” for Paul to “kick against the goads.”Acts 26:14) The Law, which promised life, thus resulted in death for Paul, not through any fault of its own, but because of the utter sinfulness of sin.

Up to this point in his discussion (v.13), Paul has described only the relationship between “Law” and “sin,” showing how the Law actually stirs up sin and leads to death. But he has not yet explained why Law should produce such effects. This he can do only by a discussion of “the flesh”!

This is the setting of Romans 7:14-25! Verse 14 begins with the word “for” and continues and advances Paul’s discussion of “Law, sin, and flesh” by dramatically describing in the present tense the place of sin’s reign—“the flesh”: “For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.” (Notice that the transition to the present tense takes place quite naturally since Paul could hardly say, “We know that the Law was spiritual.”) Paul then continues in the present tense until the end of the chapter, giving a firsthand account of the “bondage to sin” experienced by those who are “in the flesh.” He does this from the vantage point of one who has now become a Christian and can see clearly the nature of the conflict that was formerly taking place in his life. For this reason the terminology that Paul uses in these verses shows much Christian influence, though it is descriptive of his pre-Christian state.

Remember again Paul’s controlling statement: “For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.” “Flesh” is controlled by “sin,” and in the presence of Law the sinful passions of the flesh will always culminate in “death.” The fact that “flesh” is Paul’s emphasis throughout this section is clear from the terminology that he uses: “of flesh, sold into bondage to sin,”Rom 7:14 “a law in the members of my body,”Rom 7:23 and “the law of sin which is in my members.”Rom 7:23 This bondage to “sin in the members” leads to the desperate cry, “Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death (margin: “this body of death”)?”Rom 7:24

Paul’s answer to this cry is given in v.25, “Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!” and more fully in 8:1-4, “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did…in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.”

Notice Paul’s summary here of what he has just said at length in 7:14-25: “…what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh…”! And notice again his description of those who are Christians: “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death…that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit”! The man of Romans 7 cries, “Who will set me free?” The Christian replies, “The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free.”

Isaac Watts sums up Paul’s teaching in Romans 7 in a hymn entitled “Conviction of Sin by the Law—Romans 7:8, 9, 14-24”:

Lord, how secure my conscience was,
And felt no inward dread!
I was alive without the law,
And thought my sins were dead.

My hopes of heav’n were firm and bright;
But, since the precept came
With a convincing pow’r and light,
I find how vile I am.

My guilt appear’d but small
before Till terribly I saw
How perfect, holy, just, and pure,
Was thine eternal law.

Then felt my soul the heavy load;
My sins reviv’d again; I had provok’d a dreadful God,
And all my hopes were slain.

I’m like a helpless captive,
sold Under the pow’r of sin:
I cannot do the good I would, Nor keep my conscience clean.

My God! I cry with every breath
For some kind pow’r to save;
To break the yoke of sin and death,
And thus redeem the slave.

Three Final Observations
In closing, three things should be noted:

1. In spite of superficial resemblances, Galatians 5:16-25 is not parallel with Romans 7. Romans 7:14-25 describes the struggle and defeat of a man who is still “in the flesh” and “under the Law.” The Holy Spirit is notably absent from the language and thought of this man. In fact, the Holy Spirit is not mentioned anywhere in the entire passage.

Galatians 5:16-25, on the other hand, describes the inevitable conflict that the Holy Spirit has with the flesh in the life of a true believer. A note of victory is sounded throughout this passage: The Christian is “not under the Law.”Gal 5:18 He has already definitively “crucified the flesh with its passions and desires” through repentance and faith in Christ.Gal 5:24 The power of the Spirit in his life effectually prevents him from following the natural inclinations of his flesh—he cannot do “as he pleases.”Gal 5:17 Since he lives “in the Spirit,” he is able now to “walk in the Spirit.”Gal 5:25 And as he “walks in the Spirit,” he is assured that he “will not carry out the desire of the flesh.”Gal 5:16 These verses are not a statement of “wretchedness,” but an assurance of victory!

The real parallel to Galatians 5:16-25 is Romans 8:12-14, where “flesh” and “Spirit” are similarly contrasted: “So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.” According to these verses, the Christian is under
no obligation to live according to the flesh. He is able, by the power of the Holy Spirit, to “put to death the deeds of the body.” In fact, being thus “led by the Spirit” is one of the distinguishing
characteristics of all who are truly “sons of God”! Notice the parallel here between being “led by the Spirit” (Romans 8:14) and “walking in the Spirit” (Romans 8:4; Galatians 5:16).

2. The man described in Romans 7:7-25 is not the typical lost “man on the street,” who knows nothing of the spirituality or real desirability of the law. The man in Romans 7:7-25 is the man to whom “the commandment has come.” He makes statements that the typical unbeliever would never make. The state of misery that he is experiencing eventuates in his coming to Christ: “Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!”Rom 7:25 From this it is evident that this man is being “taught by God” and is “hearing and learning from the Father.”John 6:45 Everyone who has thus “heard and learned from the Father” comes to Christ.John 6:45

3. There is no doubt that every true Christian has felt at times as if he were “in the middle” of Romans 7. Even the truly righteous man “falls seven times”!Prov 24:16 Christian experience always involves excruciating defeat as part of the process of learning to “walk in the Spirit.” Like Peter, we often have to learn by bitter failure the insufficiency of our own resolve.Luk 22:31-34 The question before us, however, is not, “What do Christians often experience?” but, “What is Paul teaching in Romans 7 ?”

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Lisa

Actually sister there is no prohibition that I am aware of for posting links, within reason.

You did however, also change your wording as well, from a concern of not interupting this post ... Please cut this article and paste it into a new posting if you wish to discuss this view. Then we can remove it. Thank you.

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Mike Balog

Hi Ben,

Brother, I will pray for you.

There are some similarites, don't know if you have ever read this before, from John Wesley;

[url=http://www.gbod.org/worship/default.asp?act=reader&item_id=5951&loc_id=639,624]Mr. Wesley's Conversion[/url]

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Mike Balog

Mike,

Thanks for the reminder of Wesley. I am also reminded of William Cowper who struggle with assurance throughout his life.


SDG,

Dave

We need to stop looking at man's experience and look at what the word says.

1 John 5:4

4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Hebrews 4:9-11

9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of UNBELIEF.

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Lisa

Sometimes advice is ... difficult. Shared experience or just experience in general, to know that one is not completely alone, that they are not the first nor the last to go through things ...

Ben, if I may share just some of my very strange experience with you ... It has been a long salvation and while I have something of a reference to culmination, a 'night' if you will everything else is along a very long continuum. You might get the gist of it more from reading my testimony, it's in the profile there. But to come along side you for a moment. Even after the 'night' that I now look back on (for which I have no date, even the year takes some work at recollecting) nothing dramatically changed the next day, yet [i]everything[/i] was now really set in motion. It would still be yet another year or so before I even began to get into the scriptures, let alone own a bible.

During that time I was still smoking pot and doing all the same old things, watching, lusting, will spare all the gory details.

Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

The road is narrow. Depending on our disposition this is either a threat or a statement of fact. Frankly, it is both. I think this is precisely what you are finding. If I might say, 3 years is not a very long time and I think it is also a very dangerous thing for any of us to put our time-lines into yours and begin meddling with the way the Lord would lead you.

You do have to get honest with yourself and with the Lord Himself, that is were all the transacting is going to take place. This is one great exposure of our being, there is no getting around it. It can be as frightening to see what we are indeed made up of, capable of ... even unaware of, but at the very same time, [i]Lord, to whom shall we go?[/i] (John 6:68) The sick are in need of a physician, to get 'well'. The realization is that despite all this, all that we are it is the most liberating thing in the world to both be exposed and come to that very exposure. Why? Because now we can quit pretending and faking our way through, putting on a front, even if it is only in our minds ... Ever find the hilarity of it all to think that we can, like Adam go and 'cover up our shame' our nakedness?

Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Not a creature, all things, naked and open. It is quit disarming to come to this realization brother, even if troubling. But you are indeed troubled. And I want to say, good! If you weren't in the least troubled, even troubled that you find yourself [i]not troubled[/i] as you stated over these things, well then we would have a whole different paradigm to be dealing with. You are a hypocrite and I am greater one having absorbed so much, how much more the accountability ... It doesn't get any easier in one sense only more ... profound at the depths of true corruption;

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

This is a statement of fact and of experience.

Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Note [i]Who[/i] does the searching and the trying. Not anyone of us that is for certain. I disagree with the idea of Paul's wretched man being a preconversion extrapolation, the context does not suggest that in any way whatsoever. "I am" is not "I was". Every time we sin we prove it's validity and not a one of us can ever escape;

[i]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.[/i] 1Jn 1:8-10

God forbid we would ever take some sort of spurious presumption or advantage of this. Listen to Wesley's recognition;

[i]"And I sin not to-day, and Jesus my Master has forbid me to take thought for the morrow[/i]"

It is here where some advice was very helpful to me, though at the time it irked me so, like a goad stabbing at my conscience and what I thought was contrary to what I was supposed to be feeling at the time ... sorrow for my sin. The admosnishen was to get my eyes off my stinking self, Oh! That hurt more than I knew it, not only was I still wrestling with this whole fleshly business, now I had to face this added weight that I was a selfish, too introspective wretch on top of everything else? It was an Elijah type moment, [i]It is enough; now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers.[/i]" 1Ki 19:4

So what happened? I fought. Fought against the preoccupation with my self and turned away towards looking to the Lord [i]Himself[/i] and to others. It just occurred to me another recent article you might want to take into these considerations;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=21164&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]Divine Cordial[/url][url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=21164&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]Thomas Watson ~ Divine Cordial[/url]

Wish this would have occurred to me earlier, would have saved me a lot of ink. It speaks precisely to this situation. It goes against the grain and I think it is wonderful because it is dangerous enough and bold enough to thwart some preconceived notions, which we are often more comfortable churning out as theology, doctrine, dogmas.

I hate trying to always feel like these things need nice tidy ribbons of conclusion or summary, 'in a nut shell' salutations but I am weak, so if it has to be ... Brother, you can give up, it's quite alright. Just surrender and forget about how that will all happen or work itself out. You are bothered or you wouldn't have bothered to say so. Praise God! It's a heart work, through and through and it is worth every ounce of strain and pain and death to our selves, the very truth that the Lord spoke of ...

Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

It's true! It's a strange paradox but it is incredible. I am reluctant to paint some rosy picture by scripture to make all this seem rather simplistic and to ease your conscience, even mine before others. It's not that. There is that which precedes;

Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

It is a most worthy and noble thing to expense all that we are but again, the reward is there, you do find it after all. You can walk in the Spirit, [i]today[/i], take that same admonishen that Wesley latched onto, forget about tomorrow, it is not here yet! And yesterday cannot be resurrected either, today, today is [i]the[/i] day.

Having a hard time leaving off here and am over-speaking, rambling even but brother you have set the wheels of thought in motion and I can't seem to find the brakes. There is some excitement and anticipation that I pray is coming through all this. You see, I have been reflecting on this very thing, how much the hypocrite I am and can be. There was a season, spanning some time between the year past and the one prior where nothing almost ever offended me, I was 'dead' to it all for the greater part and it is of this same substance, having found 'life' it just didn't matter what it was. Hardship, family, financial ... work, this great entrapment where everything really gets put to the test. Dead, dead, dead to all of it, it just didn't matter and there was joy in ...

[i]My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.[/i]Jas 1:2,3

These are precious and tremendous verses brother as they go on, muse on them, drink them in, absorb them.

But I began to drift, all of a sudden I found myself most recently even becoming annoyed and frustrated, peevish ... snapping at times and this is primarily at ... you bet, work. This great testing ground for the fool. Finding myself feeling overlooked and not truly being acknowledged as I had it cooked up in my feeble mind. "Pity party" to the rescue! ... Ugh ... would come home from work and settle down and .. the regrets and woe, "Why did I ____?" "Say [i]that[/i]? "React this way?" ... "Look at ____"? Toy with things, play with them in my mind and use this fallacious reasoning of 'justifying' it all because and when I had been stirred up by ...

Jas 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?

Oh wretched man indeed! Tell me it is not so ... It put me on my face literally and figuratively, I recognized I needed to humble [i]my self[/i].
So of late it has been a back tracking and recollecting to those former days, how to get back? Denial. Crucifixion of the thought life, casting down evil imaginations. Grabbing those thoughts by the scruff of the neck and jerking them back into alignment. [i]Prayer[/i]! Everything is prayer, earnest, heartfelt, exposed and naked prayer. Read about prayer, study it .. do it!

Ah brother, took a pause to muse on just why all this is coming out here. Honesty and people who will expose their gut's like this, like yourself are such a magnetic thing to me. It draws me in and draws me out, it is a most endearing thing to just get down to the root of the matter, to the heart core issues of this tremendous faith. I am a bit besides myself and at the moment unashamedly, later on I will calm down and come back and feel this weirdness of going on and on and on ...

Forget about it brother, you are stuck now. Your admission is proof of it, could you yet turn away? Certainly, so could anyone of us if we were truly honest about it, but is that your desire? ... doesn't sound like it to me. Take note of it! Why do you care?

I do not know what all you have read or might be reading but if you stick around here and challenge yourself, expose yourself to all that is available here ... force yourself off too much introspection for a season and force yourself to some different intake, a different subject, say just studying the life of Jesus for instance, without any preconceptions you may find that an altered perspective is just the remedy for what ails you. Trust the things you are struggling with are not going to go away, not on your life. You will not forget about them nor should you. The same admonishen in the link above stands, think not lightly of sin. You must however find what needs to be dealt with by what is first up on the agenda according to the Lords emphasis and only you and He can know what that is right now. The distractions are to get off of the constant navel gazing, (Which I am King! There are no pretenders to this throne) and on to the Lord. Brother I have great hope for you and my prayers are agitated by your magnetism.

Go on brother. Be strong in the Lord, He is faithful.

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Mike Balog

Hi everyone,


myfirstLove,


"We need to stop looking at man's experience and look at what the word says."



Timing is important also. John 16:12.

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Christopher Joel Dandrow

Chris, these are not hard sayings that I'm speaking of, that is only for the mature. These are things pertaining to the cross that Paul says he boast of. I am not one to talk about all sort of other doctrines that many spiritual babes cannot understand because of carnality or being still young in Christ, but my passion has always been to talk about the basics which is everything pertaining to the cross and ressurection. Brother, this is very much a due time to speak of the victory in Christ because so many of God's people are living in hopelessness and unbelief. My passsion is to help others to enter in the promise land (God's promises which is the rest in Christ) and not die in the wilderness (unbelief).

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Lisa