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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Application vs. Over-application of OT to Christians

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tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
I know nothing of the Emerging Church.



No time like the present to learn just a little.


Frank Viola speaking about Brian McLaren:

“Despite the unfair (and often malicious and misguided) criticism he has received, I believe Brian is spearheading a very important work today. While I've not read everything he's written nor have I heard everything he's taught, I've never heard him say or write anything that wasn't in line with the spirit and attitude of Jesus Christ”. - Frank Viola (taken from his website)

While Frank does attempt to safely distance himself from potential problems arising from Brian McLaren, I would dare to say that Mr. Viola has not read very much of McLaren’s work at all.

Brian McLaren has stood in the churches of Sodom and Gomorrah and preached a message of unity. I have read two of Brian McLaren’s books (along with several articles) and I can sum them both up in one word…TOLERANCE.

I’m all for breaking from useless tradition when need be, but Mclaren refuses to call sin, sin.

This tolerance of sin is usually hidden under the guise of unity. The “I’m O.K., your O.K.” and “ It’s all good!” slogans that are being broadcast from many pulpits today are not helping to form Christian unity, but are instead working to form an un-Godly alliance between men and the devil himself.

We must remember that Jesus was beaten and killed for the message He preached.

This is one of the churches Brian McLaren and Jay Baker have spoken at more than once. It is pastured by Randy and Gary Eddy-McCain(partners). The story of God’s acceptance of their lifestyle can be found…along with Galleries including numerous pictures of McLaren and Baker at various activities.

http://www.sherwoodopendoor.org/index2.html

This is not an attack on you, Jeffrey, or of Frank Viola for that matter…just a little taste of what SOME (not all) of the emergent church is condoning.

I know that many say pollen is found in weeds as well as flowers, but we must also remember that the same can be said of poison. Less than one percent of a rattlesnake is poison…but that’s all that is needed to kill.

I have been blessed to hear of your experiences in Thailand. I hope you share more.

Peace be with you brother


_________________
TJ

 2008/1/1 12:32Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
I'm just trying to find Jesus in the Old Testament as much as possible. And with great love and respect for the Old Testament, want to see it applied as broadly as possible, without actually being stupid about the subject.



R.A. Torrey claimed that Jesus Christ could be found in every page of the Old Testament - if one was willing to dig deep enough. I certainly haven't found Christ on every page yet, but as the years go by, I'm seeing Him more and more in the most obscure places in Scripture. It's really exciting to suddenly find Jesus in the nooks and crannies of Ezra, Job, in Numbers - and virtually all throughout Leviticus and Exodus; and even in the seemingly insipid geneologies than begin 1 Chronicles...

All that being said, I should caution everyone here to take heed (well, here I go again! More warnings!). Finding typologies really does nothing in terms of making one more godly, more surrendered to God, and it doesn't enrich one's prayer life. In fact, a person can find Christ everywhere in the OT and allow such revelations to "puff" him or her up. We are not exhorted in the New Testament to seek out typologies as much as we are God's righteousness and a life free from sin. I remember at one time I could point out Jesus in very mundane passages and sort of "wow" my listeners and make it seem I was so spiritual and full of knowledge and Bible prowess. And I was! The only problem was, my heart was polluted, like a city with broken-down walls. Brethren, it is possible to simultaneously have a dull heart and a sharp mind. Such seems to be the bane of many preachers.

When astronomers find new galaxies or planets, such changes do not effectuate moral climates on earth, as men will still war and lust and covet and horde. If we really want to see Jesus in the Old Testament in all His glory and splendor, the telescopes we use must have a lenses of clean hands and pure hearts. Such telescopes are indispensible, as they not only fill with dazzling light the "darkest" areas of the sky, but they also allow the observer to live and experience what they see.

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2008/1/1 13:00Profile









 Re:

[size=x-small]I've heard televangelists and politicians quote this verse in the context of the US. Its like an insurance policy to them. "We need to do this national prayer thing so God will bless us." 2Chr. 7:14 becomes some kind of magic formula to cause the sovereign God to act on behalf of the most materialistic nation the world has ever seen. I believe this is a stench in His nostrils.[/size]

Jesus is the way the truth and the life. There is no forgiveness of sins without repentance of the heart. Hopefully these preachers and politicians are not speaking to the nation (land, trees, rivers, streams, mountains, but to it's people. No person would ever ask Jesus to forgive them unless they first know that is the only hope they have. They must realize apart from HIM they are doomed and hell bound. Why, because everyone of us deserve hell, that's why we call it grace. After one has seen his own sin and HIS grace and mercy we will desire to be pleasing to the Father by the Spirit of Christ within us. Is it not the words that call them to Christ, no but when the gospel is preached and Jesus' name is lifted high, HE told us HE would draw all men unto himself. Granted there are many TV preachers and politicains who proclaim their allegiance to HIM for the Christian vote,however the gospel be preached on TV or the public square by a homeless guy or a President, it's still the gospel and it is not who speaks it but the SPIRIT of GOD that draws. If they are preaching Jesus instead of civil rights, the right to be gay, the right to kill their unborn baby and food stamps, let em preach Jesus. If you seek HIS face, you are gonna see Jesus.

 2008/1/1 18:20
davyman
Member



Joined: 2007/12/21
Posts: 83


 Re:

Quote:

GodsPeace wrote:
To all concerned who read this post, please read the link "Beyond Bible Study" in my post below.

That brings together everything.

I'm just trying to find Jesus in the Old Testament as much as possible. And with great love and respect for the Old Testament, want to see it applied as broadly as possible, without actually being stupid about the subject. Since my original post I read the link below from Frank Viola, which, in 17 pages (15 if you knock out the credits) does a great job of answering that - to which you are still asking questions. Like, whether things should be in quotes or not?

Please get off that and spend an hour or less reading the link.

In short; Of course scripture can be over applied! Satan does that! It can me misapplied, warped, twisted and hammered into unrecognizable shapes, and has been through the millennia.

But finding Jesus, in every passage, in the book of Leviticus (as Viola explains in the article you haven't read). Now that's like a pearl of great price. Sorry for over-applying the parable.

Dave - I think you hit the nail on the head with regard to 2 Chronicles 7:14. But I think that though it came specifically to Israel, through Solomon, as a special message from the Lord, and contains some very scary warnings that would come to pass and to Israel. I agree that for every TV preacher to apply it to the US today is ludicrous.

But I am always thinking "Body of Christ" - Locally assembled saints. I think, as such we are not His people Israel, but if we, as a body, "truly" humble ourselves, "truly" pray, and "truly" seek His face, and "truly" repent and turn from our wicked ways, wherever we were he would restore our relationship with Him. But probably not with the exact promise He gave Solomon. I'm in Thailand, and these are not His people, and this is not His people's land, and they aren't about to repent... yet.

Without 2 Chr, 7:14 the word has ample promises to Israel, but also to others, both corporately and individually that contains the promise of His being there for those who seek Him. So, if the small fellowship of believers I'm with took 7:14 seriously, i.e. took Him at His word, then I believe we would certainly, "Hear from heaven" and many things would change in our walk with Him.

Also - and you'd have to be as sold on the idea of the body of Christ - as opposed to the traditional 'church' - as I am. You'd realize I'm talking about a corporate (local body) movement in this direction. History is full of "great men" of God. These I will not denigrate, but I think God wants for Himself, "a great people".

Our hope is in Christ. I think our time for being cowboys in the faith - rugged individuals! Is best left in the dust heap. It doesn't take great numbers to be the local representation of the body of Christ. I think great numbers might be counter-productive, but find a hard time explaining that in the context of Acts 2.

I didn't want to give this away, because it spoke to my heart so wonderfully when I read it, I wanted it to be a surprise to you, too, but at the end of the "Beyond Bible Study" Viola makes quite a case for the balance that can occur when we study the Bible together. Now, I don't take this for a minute to be the, "What's this scripture mean to you?" error. But, rather, I have seen this work where I might be the main teacher and someone will bring up something that was definitely meant to be brought out, and was a blessing to all, that wasn't part of my plan. How much better, if we're all searching the scriptures Berean-style, and open to each other, and even more to the Holy Spirit within them.

In conclusion, I think we can find Jesus Christ more widely in the OT than I think most of us realize. I still would like to be led to more info regarding this subject. But I think if we agree to assemble with brethren of like mind who want to apply a Cristological and Ecclesial Hermenutic to the interpretation of scriptures we can learn and grow corporately in ways far beyond our individual abilities, Because wherever two or more are gathered... Guess what? He doesn't add to our abilities, He doesn't magnify or multiply our abilities. He is infinite! He takes our measly number and raises it to the power of infinity! Hallelujah!

Thanks

Jeffrey



Jeffrey,

Sorry it has taken so long to reply. We are on the same page brother.

SDG,


Dave

 2008/1/1 20:44Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

GodsPeace wrote:
In conclusion, I think we can find Jesus Christ more widely in the OT than I think most of us realize. I still would like to be led to more info regarding this subject.



"And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself" (Lk. 24.27).

(Christ talking with the two disciples on the road to Emmaus.)

The Old Testament is a rich treasure chest full of New Testament truth. But we must turn on our "New Testament reading lamp," and in the Light of that Lamp read the Old.

But even with that, our challenge is to let Christ do with us as He did with those two disciples of old. Their hearts burned within them as He spoke and walked along with them. It was Christ revealing Christ.

And then He did an even more wondrous thing with those two men, revealing Himself even further. When they constrained the Man to abide with them for the night "He took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave it to them. And their eyes were opened and they KNEW HIM."

This is what I want and seek. Let Him by His Holy Spirit speak, and cause my heart to burn within me as He opens to me wondrous things out of His law.

But let me not settle for that. Let Him then bless, and break, so break the Bread of Life that I SEE Him, and KNOW Him...

I am so hungry these days for this. I want to SEE Him. I want to KNOW Him in a way I have never known Him before.

AD




_________________
Allan Halton

 2008/1/1 23:09Profile









 Re:

GodsPeace wrote:
In conclusion, I think we can find Jesus Christ more widely in the OT than I think most of us realize. I still would like to be led to more info regarding this subject.

Amen

The Old Testament contained is the New Testament explained.

 2008/1/2 7:41





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