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Discussion Forum : General Topics : question about ezekiel 14, Going to prophets

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 Re: levels...

Hi Brother Ironman. I've never seen a Church run in a way that the Prophets ran the Church, unless they were fortunate to have a prophet for a pastor. It's normally the pastor who oversees what goes on in the Body. The shepherd over the sheep.

28 And some, indeed, did God set in the assembly,first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, afterwards powers, afterwards gifts of healings, helpings, governings, divers kinds of tongues

I understand vs. 28. He did originally set the church up by the Apostles first.
Pastors and Evangelists didn't even make it into that verse. And the other gifts are rarely seen in most churches.

From what we've seen of churches for the last however many centuries, as far back as we can go - that order in verse 28 just hasn't been the case, nor those gifts even present in most churches - like powers, healing and tongues.

So we're all messed up according to that verse ?

What you said next was good and a hopeful thing -
Quote - [i]"now the wisdom of God in this is that the way the body is fit together is such that the callings don't compete or lord over one another authority because Christ is Head. unlike in some of the organizations we're familiar with here, there is a lot of pushing and shoving, throwing weight around and so on. Not so in the Organization of God!"[/i]


That is God's ideal, isn't it.

Good talking with you Brother.

Merry Christmas to you and all of yours!


 2007/12/23 23:32
Lowly
Member



Joined: 2007/10/13
Posts: 41


 Re:

He Reigns
Please know I am not saying at all that I agree with inquiring of prophets. I am so sorry again if it came out that way.
I was just trying to go back to the genuine ministerial gifts in Eph 4, and what they were originally intended to be used for.

What you said their goal should be was right, so if they are being used properly then the word of God in Eph 4 would be accomplished.

I am new at this, it may take me some time to get on my feet. :-)

I will need a little grace and mercy,
Lowly

 2007/12/23 23:47Profile









 Re:

Hi Lowly, I'm taken back by an apology. I don't deserve anything like that. Also, never thought you did feel that we should "inquire of prophets" for our personal directions.
I was addressing the topic and not the person. I only differed in that the 5 ministerials will keep us from deception. That was all from what I saw.
Wanted to keep it to how us - the N.T. Church works and how different the office of the prophet was in the O.T.. It was surely an office then. So were the Priests.
If you have a KJV that's numbered to the Strong's, you see that many times where it uses the word "office", that "office" is not in there, just the positions of ministry themselves, of deacons, bishops or priesthood.

Paul uses this word in Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office/diakonia.

That word diakonia is used 34 times, but only once translated to "office". Mostly it is used as "minitry, ministering, service, relief, serving".

I think that's a more "humble" translation, that's all.


Enjoy your stay Lowly. ;-)

 2007/12/24 0:34









 Re:

Quote:

HE_Reigns wrote:
Brother, I don't see where in the N.T., that anyone "inquires of prophets".

I believe in the five ministerial gifts, but they are equal. No ministry of these five are above the others.

And [i]any[/i] believer can be used in any one of the 9 gifts in 1 Corth 12 -- as and whenever God chooses to use them.
God can use any believer to give a "word of knowledge" or "word of wisdom" or "prophecy" (which doesn't make them a prophet.) But he can use any Saint to speak to us.
All Saints have the Indwelling of the Spirit of Truth now. John 16:13. We are to seek the Lord for every step we personally take, for ourselves. "Walk in the Spirit." His sheep know His Voice and follow. We're individually responisble to hear from Him for ourselves. If HE chooses to use another Saint to give us a word, that is up to Him - but not for us to seek anyone out - except maybe a prayer partner.

I have seen websites, where people "inquire of the prophet" on-line and it was very unsettling. Like watching the psychic-hotline.

We inquire of The Lord, after we are regenerated and if He chooses to use another human being, that is totally up to Him and it will normally just be to [i]confirm[/i] what He's already spoken to us.

The difference between the prophets of the O.T. and New Testament believers is the Indwelling and Pentecost.

Will pray you hear for yourself.
His Grace.

Absolutely!

That's bang on the nail Sister!

I especially like:
Quote:
We inquire of The Lord, after we are regenerated and if He chooses to use another human being, that is totally up to Him and it will normally just be to [i]confirm[/i] what He's already spoken to us.



Thank you for this

Jeannette

 2007/12/24 18:12
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

sis Annie Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Quote:
Hi Brother Ironman. I've never seen a Church run in a way that the Prophets ran the Church, unless they were fortunate to have a prophet for a pastor. It's normally the pastor who oversees what goes on in the Body. The shepherd over the sheep.



me neither but it's not so much a matter of the Prophets/Apostles "running the Church" Holy Spirit does that. i believe it's each part of the 5 fold ministry falling in as it were. the role of the pastor scripturally is quite different i'm finding than what we know today. the Original Template which God set at the first is something which ought to have been followed all the way through but somewhere down the line, the enemy slipped in and changed things a lot, from Popery and the foundations thereof things kinda went awry. However in spite of this, God yet draws souls to Himself...if that don't say God is Almighty...somehow the order was messed up, the gifts diminished greatly etc. i believe though we are about to see a Church like at the first, only much more powerful and effective. these are the last days and God intends to Shine in a big way...so much so that all those who have gone before us (the cloud of witnesses) is watching to see us outdo them by His Power. God has saved the best wine for last i believe.

Quote:
So we're all messed up according to that verse ?



yes ma'am and i'm not sure if the pushing and shoving came before the loss of the order or as a result of it but either way i believe that we're largely out of order and as a result we have many strifes which come as a result of the current structure of the Church which i believe is being shaken. once we get back with the Original Program, i believe much of the strife will be eliminated.

i do pray for this day and long for it and i believe it's not too far of :-D

imagine that, an Organization which ain't dog eat dog...

Merry Christmast to you and yours and Grace and PEace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/12/24 18:49Profile
Lowly
Member



Joined: 2007/10/13
Posts: 41


 Re:

Should not we long for these ministerial gifts to be in operation in their original intended use?
Knowing that they were given for the perfecting of the saints, the work of the ministry, and edifying of the body of Christ.........

What is the desired end?
That we all come in the unity of the faith, and the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ..........

What is one of the benefits/fruits of arriving at this?
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive....

So couldn't we say that these ministerial gifts are given to the body of Christ as another source of help to keep us in the truth?

In His amazing love,
Lowly

 2007/12/24 23:34Profile









 Re:

Quote:

HE_Reigns wrote:

Quote:
[b]Pastors, Teachers, Prophets, Apostles, and Evangelist

Some people do not have access to any of these.

The Holy Spirit/the Spirit of Truth has been given to us, so that we "would not be deceived."

Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 [i]And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.[/i]
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me


No man can prevent us from being deceived, [i]if we are not first hearing from the Holy Spirit for ourselves - Knowing His Voice.[/i]

If we are mature and walking in the Spirit - any one of us can bring His Word like a hammer.

The best "ministry" that any of these Ministerial gifted people could give to us, is to make us more dependent on His Spirit, than on themselves.
Also to give us a hunger for His Word, over and above their own Sermons.
That is how they should "equip the Saints".

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 [i]That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive[/i];
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

If they are not causing the Saints to fully and wholly learn His Voice, depend on Him alone and learn to study for themselves and discern truth from error by doing both - they've only made the people dependent on themselves and have failed His calling.

They are to lead the Sheep to their Head Shepherd, for complete dependence in Him, to get them through unto the End - during times when there may be no one around to help them make it through or to discern error for them.

Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.
Joh 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you.


We are responsible to "hear & follow" privately, individually and not be dependent on anyone - because we will have to stand alone one day and then later, at the end - give an account for what we've done with His Voice and His Word.

He Loves us.

[/b]



Rather than having to repeat what was on page 1.

I've been exposed to what I'd deem some of the best of these 5 ministerial postions, but if I did not hear His voice for myself, their affect on me would have not have been the same.

Others can reject the truth, whether it's from a prophet or teacher, or whomever --- we all know about that. :-(


 2007/12/25 1:05





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