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broclint
Member



Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re:

God bless you Annie for your research and the heads up...

Many times we see the effects of the leaven and just cannot put our finger on where it is coming from. There are so many sources of pollution, no wonder our youth many times just shake their heads and say "forget it"... the object of the author of confusion.

One thing remains true and that is the blessing of this whole SI site... when the Spirit of Truth comes down, He can do more to expose lies and confirm truth in 5 minutes than all our efforts for months and years.

And one more thought... the deception that is coming, just as it was in the days of Israel and Judah before the captivity, sadly, is because "they love to have it so". We can pray and warn and grieve as Jeremiah did, and we must, but in the end, it is those who love the truth that will hear it and those who for whatever reasons want some kind of false security, or some kind of justification to love this present world rather than bear the reproach of Christ that will be deceived... so that is the "same old same ole"...

Clint


_________________
Clint Thornton

 2007/12/20 9:08Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: The Emerging Church

Quote:

roadsign wrote:
Quote:
I believe that the emergent church is intimidating to some people because it's a pretty radical departure from normal forms of worship and church structure, but that doesn't mean it's inherently wrong.


Doug Pagitt, a leading architect of the emergent church has recently published a book, called “Preaching Re-imagined”. You can get a sense of his theological views from some of the quotes here:


Truth is a person's perspective of reality. 139
God's truth resides in all people. 41
It makes sense that if each of us have a personal relationship with God, we'd would have a personal understanding of God.
People will hold contradictory positions, but that's a good thing. 133
[The community of faith] involves the interplay of multiple viewpoints 52

[Regarding the Bible:]
…layers of messages and meanings, complicated and sometimes difficult to understand 197
The practise of applying scripture to our lives is not the established Christian tradition but rather a product of more recent ways of thinking about the church. 97
Aplication is bad because it allows us to remain disconnected – to think of our faith in individlualistic terms. 99
There has been an overemphasis on Jesus to the exclusion of the call to the kingdom life. 246


About Pagitt’s own testimony, he claims that as a youth he was “rearranged” through some “reorienting force” which resulted in “a new implication.” 65....Pagitt lauches our with is owm imagination, but fails to see just how deeply his thinking has been tainted by the world.

Diane




This is the critical point...there is a global movement to get into each of our churches, and pass on that tainted thinking...and it's working.

[b]But it's not just about the churches, it's who is involved, and that includes the people who inhabit our political structures. It is done in plain sight, and yet no one looks at it, because it is done in the name of peace, and helping others.[/b]


Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/12/20 23:32Profile









 Re: THE emerging Merger -

Thankful for your posts Broclint and Forrest.

While we've all been "distracted", the new world order is being ushered in by those who have been considered by most, to be part of "the church" and their activity level & "networking out" toward this goal has increased so much in just this past year, it would be impossible to post all of them and the vast multitude of those involved, both religious, secular and political, together working as one, toward this one goal.

I know with all of my heart, that this is the number one issue facing us all - though it is a hard subject to approach and present.

As in the posts on the previous page - I can only ask that during our days off, that we search the links given on page one and those below.
The articles by Roger Oakland and Dave Hunt and the rest listed again below, are chock full of the documentation, of how far this "religious movement" has merged with not only the New Age, the eccumenical, but now are fully active in Global political action, decision making and attempting to bring about what the Word of God tells us that only Jesus The Christ can and will bring at His Second Advent and this is the unfolding of the source of the future persecution of The Elect.

Please take this seriously and don't think that this is just another false doctrine thread.

This is the most important message I've ever personally put myself behind in my lifetime and though I'd rather sweep it out of my thoughts, I know that EVERY Christian on earth will be much affected with what is being posted on this thread ... Some swept away by it and others persecuted by it - but every single Christian on this planet will have the tenticles of this Merger touch their lives in an Eternal way.

Please be open to doing the research.

Please put all the links on both of these pages somewhere, for easy access on your computer and research this Global Religious/Political Movement as much as possible.

You all have my deepest heart felt love and prayers and always will.

I pray 2008 is a year in which the veil is rent and our spiritual eyes are opened very wide by His Spirit, to understand the magnitude of these delusions/deceptions and that we are able to educate ourselves enough to save many in our own families, fellowships and many friends. In Jesus' Holy Name. Amen.

'His' Love & Peace to you all.




[b]The Global Initiative for a new world order - brought to you by "the church" - plus - [/b]

Emergent leader Brian McLaren, in discussing “Jesus’ secret message,” said His “secret plan” was for a “spiritual revolution that would give birth to a new world” (p. 4). This is the language of the doctrine of dominionism, and his book The Secret Message of Jesus (W Publ. Group, 2006) is rife with examples. Remarks like:

[i]"God's conspiracy seeks to overturn the world as it is so that a new world can emerge." (p. 143)

"Each person can be a secret agent of the secret kingdom." (p. 83)

"God was launching a new world order, a new world, a new creation." (p. 31)

"A new day is coming--a new earth, a new world order, a new reality, a new realm--in short, a new kingdom." (p. 23)

"What is Jesus' secret message reveals a secret plan? What if he didn't come to start a new religion--but rather to start a political, social, religious, artistic, economic, intellectual, and spiritual revolution that would give birth to a new world?"[/i] (p. 4)

Rick Warren Quote:

[i]“We have what we call our ‘20/20 vision’—10 million churches with 100 million small groups mobilizing 1 billion disciples for the PEACE Plan by the year 2020. . . .[/i]


http://herescope.blogspot.com/search?q=Global+peace&x=50&y=3

http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/globalpeace.htm

http://lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/index.php?cat=10

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/006/solidarity-1.html

http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/?p=51

 2007/12/21 14:56
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
Clearly, Pagitt’s god is postmodernism,or rather, the spirit of the age, and his opponents are anyone and anything that has been associated with modernity.



This is perhaps the most salient point to be made about this 'post-modern' school of thought. A Christian is first and foremost called to be a scripural exegete, while these men aspire first and foremost to be cultural exegetes.

The psuedo-intellectual vocabulary surrounding 'post-modernism may be useful a scrabble game on a college campus, but for reality such vocabulary is ultimately meaningless.* There is no post-modern man with a historiclly unique idiosyncratic soul---there is only man, and his heart is the same as when Jesus brought light into the world 2000 years ago.

It's amazing how coming up with a new vocabulary, such as 'post-modernism', works such mojo on our thinking. The simple truth is we don't need Brian or Doug to tell us how to be post-modern any more then we need to them to tell us how to breathe. Afterall we live in the same time they do...by default that makes us just as post-modern as they claim to be.

MC

*(edit: Even the original thinkers of post-modernity argued over what it was exactly...apprarently it can be anything you want to be made relative, subjective, and unmeasurable. So music, art, or architecture may be classified as 'baroque, classical, romantic, or modern according to specific traits, but 'post-modern' music, art, or architecture is nothing more then an eclectic juxtaposition of all that has come before it. In other words it's whatever you want it to be.)


_________________
Mike Compton

 2007/12/21 15:16Profile









 Re:

Dear my brothers and sisters, though i wanted to hug every one i saw at the confrence, i was really shy and didn't get to know most of you: Annie you changed your avatar? no wonder i had thought you were gone, and Forrest, very very glad to see you back.

let's hold on to two things and we will never go astray:

Faith and repentance.
i believe if we hold onto those two aspects of the gospel of our Lord we will never go astray. the problem i think is we don't even agree most of the time what Faith is. i will not argue what the definition the Bible for Faith is, neither the implicaitons of what that Faith would make me do, but i want to tell you something: as Rolfe Baranrd says in a good number of his sermons, if this faith that resides in me is not scandalous (notice he didn't say ridiculous or absurd, or weird or non-rational), to those that are in the world or in this emergent church movement or anyone who is in spiritual darkness, i can assure myself that i don't have the Faith that God's Word talks about. And i believe this is where we have gone wrong for so long a time not just here but everywhere in the world; for most mission agencies go with the gospel "believe" and they might as well have added the word "recite" and "you will be saved". What's so beautiful of this Faith is- every time i think of this Faith that God's word talks about, i am driven to my knees.

 2007/12/21 16:03









 Re:

Brother, that is why having the Classics as a foundation here is what puts us all on safer ground and yet to know what's new and creeping in, was what most of the Epistles dealt with also. I love that balance and I appreciate the expression given to that balance.

Appreciated your words here - "-for most mission agencies go with the gospel "believe" and they might as well have added the word "recite" and "you will be saved"."

Your post reminded me of this verse - Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Thank you sb1175!

 2007/12/21 16:51
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: Emergent postmodernism


Quote:
we don't need Brian or Doug to tell us how to be post-modern


Ah, but they help define what we do NOT want to be!


Jeffrey Arthurs offers some more realistic observations, I believe:
People of the modern generation and people of the postmodern generation (and for that matter people of the premodern generation) are more similar than dissimilar. … the essential qualities that define humanity have not changed, and presumably will not change. We are created in the image of God, yet we have fallen; we are created to fellowship with God, yet we make idols to try to fill the God-shaped vacuum in our lives; all of us need to repent and accept by faith the grace offered in Jesus Christ. Our real needs have not changed, nor has the gospel, the solution to our needs.
(…)
In many ways postmodernism is simply an extension of modernism. Thomas C. Oden calls it “ultra-modernism – modernism which has gone to seed.” Modernism was characterized by humanism, individualism, and anti-authoritarianism, and these “isms” have not waned in postmodernism. Postmodernism also asserts some premodern ideas : ex “Man is the measure of all things.” , or “ nothing exists; if any thing does exist it cannot be known… (Abdera from the fifth centry BC)

“There is nothing new under the sun.”

It seems that what Pagitt has tried to do is redefine the human being and thus he has needed to redefine the solution for man’s problems. Through his eyes, Modernism is the problem. Thus it must be assumed that postmodernism is the solution – the new and better way. Maybe that explains the obsession about postmodernism. Really its an obsession to create (IMAGINE) a god out of “WHATEVER”.
Quote:
it can be anything you want




This god - I declare we shall here and now refer to as “WHATEVER”. :-?


Diane


_________________
Diane

 2007/12/22 7:34Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
It seems that what Pagitt has tried to do is redefine the human being and thus he has needed to redefine the solution for man’s problems.



Well stated Diane. I believe you have boiled Emergent Theology down to it's core mission (or reformission as they like to coin it). Now, with the lid off this flawed precept, we can more easily anticipate the pitfalls they will bring to a younger unsuspecting generation of Christians.

Quote:
Through his eyes, Modernism is the problem. Thus it must be assumed that postmodernism is the solution



Indeed, man has no sin nature in the emergent scenareo. (In this sense, Emergent Theology seems to take humanism's love affair with itself.) The doctrine of fallen man's need for redemption is replaced with protests against colonialism, or materialsim, or racism, or poverty, or homophobia, or global warming. In order to faciliate this avoidance of the real problem, Emergent thinkers talk in dangling cadences; recoiling from the notion of objective truth and revealed doctrines and instead waxing poetically about subjective 'narratives' and 'conversations'.

I find all of their open-minded relativity to be disingenuinous cynicism, because in the end they are quite resolute in their objective; they want to demote scriptural authority below the authority of the various 'communities' that claim to be Christian.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2007/12/22 10:58Profile









 Re: The Emerging Merger


Recently, I had occasion to be posting Hebrews 11:6 which says that without faith it is impossible to please God - that we must seek Him believing 'He is'.

I don't want to divert this thread from the intent of the original poster, to awaken us to the reality of the merging of religious belief with political objectives and the extent to which these are already operational, but I noticed this in Diane's quote from Jeffrey Arthurs:

Quote:
all of us need to repent and accept by faith the grace offered in Jesus Christ. Our real needs have not changed, nor has the gospel, the solution to our needs.

What struck me is that this shorthand for true Christianity, lays the emphasis on man's activity (however spiritual true repentance is) rather than the pre-exisiting God in whom Paul declares [i]all men[/i] can believe because He is clearly seen by those things which He made. This is where we begin our approach to God - by acknowledging the creation of the universe and our own existence. From here, we might begin to examine why our understanding is closed to knowing His deeper heart and mind. And from there we might acknowledge our sin. There is a sense in which this thesis undermines both Calvinism and Arminianism simultaneously [i](HURRAY!)[/i] but that was not my intention.

Nor was I trying to disagree with your points Diane, but it hit me that we arrive in this world and find ourselves surrounded by evidences of God from our earliest breath. He doesn't need to 'do' anything else to declare Himself. And Mike's point about the denial of scriptural authority rings very true.

Even as I write I can recall how fiercely during the years of my childhood, the simple observation that God made the world, the sun, mankind (and so on) drew scorn from [i]all quarters[/i] - academics and children alike (who were learning from their parents' new-found freedom to reject God) - but now with the backing of the educational establishment. All were challenging what they [i]imagined[/i] to be the faulty received wisdom of the generation previously, whom they [i]imagined[/i] had believed without cause. Isn't that the basis of all modern scepticism? Unlike the scepticism of the seventeenth century, which set out to prove God through science, we have arrived in an age where denial [i]per se[/i] is considered an academically respectable stance. Truly, the fool hath said in his heart 'There is no God'.

Let's get back to basics. Let's encourage each other to pray for wisdom and insight, that we may each slide out from under the burdens of this age, and trust God for all necessary provision to glorify His name - whether by life or by death. Amen.

 2007/12/22 12:33









 Re:

[b]Make it Plain[/b] by Anton Bosch

“Write the vision and make it plain on tablets, that he may run who reads it.” (Habakkuk 2:2).

The instruction to the prophet is to make the vision plain. In other words make it simple and easy to understand so that the reader may be motivated into action. This is the calling to all preachers, teachers and writers of God’s Word. Our job is not to impress people with our knowledge and vocabulary but to communicate the message in such a way that the hearer will not only understand it, but will be able to apply it to his life.

Unfortunately, it seems that many modern “theologians” take the joke about theology being the art of making simple things complicated seriously. Take just the following statement as an example: “To envision, to energize, and to enable changes in the paradigm, mission/purpose, and culture. . . leans more in the direction of the supersensible, the intuitive, the spiritual, the metastrategic -- the magical." (John C. Hillary, in his article "Paradigm Change: More Magic than Logic") What does that really mean?

Jesus was the most powerful, wise and anointed preacher of all time but, look how He spoke: “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth…" (Mat 5;3-5). While His words were profound and life-giving they were easy to comprehend so that even children could understand Him. Those with wisdom and insight plumbed the weightiness and depth of His sayings but even the simple could understand His message. When He commissioned Peter at the sea, He did not send Peter (and us) to feed the giraffes but to feed the lambs and the sheep. (John 21:15-17). He never said a single word about how we should impress the wise and intelligent, but He said much about the consequences of causing little ones to stumble. The lawyers of Jesus’ day were very good at this game and so Jesus said to them: “Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered.” (Luke 11:52).

Paul found himself under pressure by the philosophers to display his wisdom by clever arguments, but he too chose to only preach the foolishness of the Cross and concluded that “God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise” (1Corinthians 1:27).

So, we should be very suspicious of the motives of anyone who writes or speaks in big fancy terms as this is certainly evidence of a desire to boast of their vocabulary and knowledge, rather than communicate the truth. Peter speaks of them as "wells without water and clouds that carry no rain. They speak great swelling words of emptiness…” (2Peter 2:18). What a graphic description – big words that say nothing! Paul spoke of those who, “Professing themselves to be wise… became fools” (Romans 1:23). This is the same spirit of the antichrist who “was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies” (Revelation 13:5). No doubt, one of the things that will attract the damned to this imposter will be his convincing words. Be careful of those who exhibit the same ability as the antichrist and Satan to disguise their lies by clever speech. Paul warns against those who “do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple” (Romans 16:18).

In the past few years many of these “clever” men have also developed a whole new language that is radically different to the language of the Bible. There may be times that we have to use words that are not part of Scripture in order to describe something that is clearly taught in the Bible. Think for example, of words like “the rapture” and “the Trinity.” I am sure that it is sometimes necessary to use such words, but they should be the exception rather than the norm. However, when I try to read the writings of modern gurus, or attend their lectures, I find they have a completely new vocabulary, filled with jargon which is almost impossible to be understood by an outsider like myself. Take another look at the quote from Mr. Hillary above. Are “envision,” “paradigm,” “supersensible,” “intuitive,” “metastrategic” and “magical” biblical terms, or do they describe biblical concepts? One of them, is not even in the English language and the rest do not appear in the Bible. While most of these words seem to mean the same as similar words in the Bible, what they really mean in modern theology is directly opposite to the closest similar word in the Bible.

Unfortunately some preachers are dazzled by these fancy terms and they then begin to borrow this jargon and begin to weave it into their own messages and writings. Sometimes these parrots know what the word may mean, but often they use it without even understanding what the term really means. Of course this is not unique to theology. It is very common for journalists and politicians to do the same. I have often thought about designing a computer program that will write political or religious speeches. The program will have a basic set of fancy words, technical terms and other mumbo-jumbo which the computer will then string together at random to form sentences that really say nothing at all. I am sure we have all listened to a sermon or a speech and after 20 minutes of much hot air wondered what really was said.

I think, but could be totally wrong, that what Mr Hillary said above is: “to make changes, we need magic.” So why did he not say so? Firstly, because that would not make him sound clever and secondly, it would reveal the gross error of what he is proclaiming!

So, whenever you come across a “Christian” whose writing or speech is confusing and verbose (wordy), don’t feel inferior. It is not you who have failed to understand, it is the writer who has failed to communicate. It is not you who is stupid, but the generator of hot air is the fool. Don’t struggle with it – just let it go. If it was God’s Word, it would not be hard to understand.

If you are a speaker or writer then don’t follow the footsteps of Satan who, by playing tricks with words, deceived Eve; but follow Jesus whose Words are spirit and life (John 6:63). Let us be like the Levites, in the time of Nehemiah, who “helped the people to understand the Law… (who) read distinctly from the book, in the Law of God; and they gave the sense, and helped them to understand the reading” (Nehemiah 8:7,8).

http://www.discernment-ministries.org/HerescopeMarch2006.htm

 2007/12/22 13:32





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