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c52
Member



Joined: 2006/12/31
Posts: 44
Loveland, Co. USA

 Re:

Quote:

glorytoglory wrote:
you cannot be born again...mark them which cause divisions...being condemned of himself.


Hummm! I haven't found any adventists here creating division, who is creating a division? Who can say, "you can not be born again"? Who?


_________________
Charles H Holston

 2007/12/17 22:54Profile
jayyou
Member



Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


 Re:

Dear Brother Glorytoglory,

After reading your post I could not but reply to your message. I usually don't get involved in this sort of discussions. but I feel that I have a voice and therefore I must speak.

I have being into trouble in this site before, but I cannot be attacked like this and keep silent.

It doesn't take a rocket cientist to know that you have an opinion about SDAs and for me to try to change your mind about us would somewhat be a mission impossible and I am no Tom Cruise.

But having said that I feel that I cannot pass this opportunity to at least clarify certain things that were said about us.


"""Romans 16:17
17Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.""""

and you went on quoting quite a few texts regarding the same issue.

Now, you are right, Paul preached the Gospel the way it should be preached and I totally agree with you, even if an angel would preach a different Gospel, let him be accursed. But having said that You are assuming that what you preach is that same Gospel that Paul preached, and I have the feeling that a lot of people might disagree with that. If you ask a catholic he will say with all his heart that they preach the gospel of Paul, if you go to a presbyterian He will say the same, baptist, Pentecostals and the list Goes on. I myself, believe that what the SDAs preach is the gospelthat Paul preached. So there we are, You will not convince me that you are right neither will I convince you otherwise.

Now, you are the One causing division by passing judgment on Us. If you do not agree that what we preach is correct than challenge us in scriptures, but openly acuse us of causing division and passing judgment on us, I think this is out of order.

Everyone assume that they are right, otherwise they would be living a lie expecting to be saved by it, It doesn't make sense.

I am not really interested on what this one believes of that one believes and so on. I am interested in what the word of God says to me as an individual.


So, Please let's not pass judgment on anybody, it is not a Christ like thing to do.

My final Goal is the same as yours, and If for a single moment I did not believe that we preach the same gospel that Paul preached, I would not be an SDA.

 2007/12/18 5:11Profile
jayyou
Member



Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


 Re:

Dear brother Glorytoglory,

I have a few question for you.

Quote:""""The Bible says: "Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith." - Galatians 3:11 (ESV)""""

Please allow me to comment on this.

who wrote that the Righteous shall live by faith?

Habakkuk 2:4 But the just shall live by his faith.

Written by someone from the OT, someone that was under the law. Interesting!!!

Now, Paul wrote what you have quoted for this reason.

verse 16
Galatians 2:16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ,

but if you go back to the beginning of the chapter you find this.

Galatians 2:3-4 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage),

What was Paul really saying about the works of the law?
Circumcision,
You have to take the whole context of what Pauls was saying.
Now, in anywhere where Paul said that we live by faith or that we are not justified by the law, I can garantee you that if you go back a few verses you will find that he is talking about circumcision.




Now, my question to you is.

Who will be justified according to romans 2


Romans 2:13-15 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)

Please brother explaing this text for me.

doers of what law will be justified? see verses 21-22-24

What law do we find (Steal, adultery, and blasphemy the name of God)?

I would love to have your explanation of Romans 2:13

Waiting for your answer brother.

God bless.





 2007/12/18 5:28Profile









 Re:

Obviously there is a huge gulf between what I believe is heresy and what others believe is heresy. I was just told last night by someone else on this other site I am referring to that if you are a Calvanist than you are a heretic.

I already posted what Ellen White teaches and why she is a heretic. Now I am finding out just by starting this thread that there are SDA's on this sight as well. Hopefully you will be persuaded by the lovely christians here that there is true life on this board because they do have Jesus.

By the way I am a woman.

 2007/12/18 5:38
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2763
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

I know your questions were not directed at me but I would like to take this opportunity to respond nonetheless.

Quote:
What was Paul really saying about the works of the law?
Circumcision,
You have to take the whole context of what Pauls was saying.
Now, in anywhere where Paul said that we live by faith or that we are not justified by the law, I can garantee you that if you go back a few verses you will find that he is talking about circumcision.



Let's look at the full context, Paul is speaking of much more than circumcision in Galatians. He is speaking of the whole law. Just a few examples follow.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
(Gal 3:10)(see Deut 11:26-28)

But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years...
(Gal 4:9-10)

For this Agar is [i]mount Sinai[/i] in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
(Gal 4:25-26)

Quote:
Now, my question to you is. Who will be justified according to romans 2 Romans 2:13-15 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) Please brother explaing this text for me. doers of what law will be justified? see verses 21-22-24 What law do we find (Steal, adultery, and blasphemy the name of God)? I would love to have your explanation of Romans 2:13 Waiting for your answer brother.



From this passage in Romans it seems clear that the basis for judgment is "the secrets of men"(v.16), that is, their heart relationship to God.

If what is hidden in a man is a hard and impenitent heart, a secret self-satisfaction, a false security based on self-righteousness, then his relationship to God is totally and absolutely wrong. Even though he knows the law (or the whole Bible!), and even though he does his best to serve God, he is and remains nothing more than a hearer of the law and not a doer of it, and will therefore be finally judged by that very law. His is a false security. If, however, God finds hidden in man a contrite heart, a broken heart and a tender conscience, then his relationship to God is what it should be. In that sense he is a doer of the law, and will be declared righteous in that day.

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2007/12/18 8:48Profile









 Re:

Quote:

InTheLight wrote:
I know your questions were not directed at me but I would like to take this opportunity to respond nonetheless.

Quote:
What was Paul really saying about the works of the law?
Circumcision,
You have to take the whole context of what Pauls was saying.
Now, in anywhere where Paul said that we live by faith or that we are not justified by the law, I can garantee you that if you go back a few verses you will find that he is talking about circumcision.



Let's look at the full context, Paul is speaking of much more than circumcision in Galatians. He is speaking of the whole law. Just a few examples follow.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
(Gal 3:10)(see Deut 11:26-28)

But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years...
(Gal 4:9-10)

For this Agar is [i]mount Sinai[/i] in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
(Gal 4:25-26)

Quote:
Now, my question to you is. Who will be justified according to romans 2 Romans 2:13-15 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) Please brother explaing this text for me. doers of what law will be justified? see verses 21-22-24 What law do we find (Steal, adultery, and blasphemy the name of God)? I would love to have your explanation of Romans 2:13 Waiting for your answer brother.



From this passage in Romans it seems clear that the basis for judgment is "the secrets of men"(v.16), that is, their heart relationship to God.

If what is hidden in a man is a hard and impenitent heart, a secret self-satisfaction, a false security based on self-righteousness, then his relationship to God is totally and absolutely wrong. Even though he knows the law (or the whole Bible!), and even though he does his best to serve God, he is and remains nothing more than a hearer of the law and not a doer of it, and will therefore be finally judged by that very law. His is a false security. If, however, God finds hidden in man a contrite heart, a broken heart and a tender conscience, then his relationship to God is what it should be. In that sense he is a doer of the law, and will be declared righteous in that day.

In Christ,

Ron




Amen, what is actually being taught is all about going back to the law. Being justified by keeping the law. Paul rebuked Peter for going back to the law:

Galatians 2:11-13
11But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

12For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

13And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

The law of the SDA's is that of Ellen White a known heretic being quoted straight out of her own book. It's from this persuasion that Seventh Day Adventism is built upon which is wood, hay and stubble.


 2007/12/18 9:05
jayyou
Member



Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


 Re:

Deareast Sister glorytoglory,

I was reflecting on what you wrote here and I have to say that for some reason this text in the bible came to my mind.


Matthew 5:11-12 "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 "Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

So you made me very happy today Sis and for that I thank you....

You quoted:"""I already posted what Ellen White teaches and why she is a heretic. Now I am finding out just by starting this thread that there are SDA's on this sight as well. Hopefully you will be persuaded by the lovely christians here that there is true life on this board because they do have Jesus."""



MY dearest Sister, I am not sure if I know why you started this thread.

Is it because we SDAs Keep God's law(Ten Commandments)?

Or because we believe EGW writtings?

Either way, Let me tell you where I am coming from.

If the problem is because of the Commandments of God. I answer you with this.

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

So, as Paul said himself, Keeping the commandments of God is what really matters to me. Do you know why?

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

As far as Persecution and being slendered is concerned,

Revelation 12:17 and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

=================================================

Now if it is because of EGW, I say this:

You do not believe Her, Fine.
I have tested her writtings and to me they are in accordance with the Bible.

So, You do not believe her to be a Godly person , I do and that settles it. You can say that we are a cult, I have no problem with that for I do not believe this to be the case. EGW is a woman, just like you and me, not perfect by any means, Now we have Peter, a man filled with the Holy Spirit and yet, He was acting like a hypocrite and Paul had to tell Him off for that reason. Now because of that whatever Peter wrote has no value to me?

Doen't that make you wonder how a man filled with the Holy Spirit could be such a hypocrite?


Now As I said before, This matter about EGW is settled, You believe her to be a heretic, I don't, so that settles it and then we move on.


Please everybody, let me make this very clear, I am not preaching EGW to anybody here, I said what I said in defence of what is being said about me, and that is it.



=================================================

Quote; """"Hopefully you will be persuaded by the lovely christians here that there is true life on this board because they do have Jesus."""""


Wow, It is amazing how people such as yourself can sit down in judging bench and judge us.

It is true the fact that there are many loving people in this Site, but
Who made you judge over us to say who has and who hasn't Jesus?

And I say this with love Sis, Do not tell me that inspite of the fact that I was baptized in the precious name of Jesus, promising to live my live for Him, promising to pursue the wisdom of God the Father by studying His Holy Word and praying constantly to God to make me more like His son. I still do not have Jesus in my life?

I am not perfect by any means, but the blood of Jesus has washed all my sins away and it is out of my love for Him that I keep the Holy Laws of His father. who loved me far more than I deserve by providing a way of salvation for me through His Son Jesus Christ.

Psalm 119:10-11 With my whole heart I have sought You; Oh, let me not wander from Your commandments! 11 Your word I have hidden in my heart, That I might not sin against You!

My question to you Sis is this.

What makes you think that I am not saved?
what makes you think that I do not have Jesus in my heart?
How are you in a better relationship with Jesus than me?

I just have one more thing to say.

I do live by faith and also I am a doer of the Law, So I am very sure of my justification with is by faith but my faith without the works is dead.



But thank you for your concern.









 2007/12/18 17:08Profile
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

dear jayyou,

my name is phil. i don't know all the history between you and glorytoGod and honestly, i don't care. you guys can get that straightened out on a pm message or something.

but as for other believers on here, we have seen the legalism that certain sda practices have caused in others lives (and some of our own). that is what the past discussions have been about...legalism vs freedom in Christ.

my hope is that you will one day analyze ellen white's prophecies and books and test them as you would a true vs false prophet (by the deuteronomy test). if you can honestly come to them and let them ALL stand next to the Word, you will have to be honest and see that she falsely prophesied many times and that makes her a false prophet.

Quote:
So, You do not believe her to be a Godly person , I do and that settles it. You can say that we are a cult, I have no problem with that for I do not believe this to be the case. EGW is a woman, just like you and me, not perfect by any means, Now we have Peter, a man filled with the Holy Spirit and yet, He was acting like a hypocrite and Paul had to tell Him off for that reason. Now because of that whatever Peter wrote has no value to me?

with all due respect, you cannot compare the inspired writings of peter and the right and wrong prophesies of ellen white. did peter sin? yes. did he falsely prophesy?? no. that is the difference between a true and false prophet.

as for your salvation. i would not dare to presume whether i know if you are saved or not. God knows and i am not God. i would hope and pray that you are and if you are born again, then i will rejoice to fellowship with you in the Lord.

your brother,
phil


 2007/12/18 17:35Profile
jayyou
Member



Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


 Re:

Dear brother InTheLight,

Thank you for your question.

Please allow me to comment of it.


Quote: """For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. """


You have quoted a text from Galatians 3:10, ok let's have a look in the whole context.

Galatians 3:2-3 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

As I said brother go back a few verses and you will see a larger picture.

Paul asked, did you received the Spirit by the works of the law or by faith? and He goes on saying"" having begun in the Spirit are you being made perfect by the flesh?"" In other words, are you being made perfect by Circumcision?

Not satisfied? ok, let's go back a few more verses.

Galatians 2:3-4 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage),

Again, as you said youself, Circumcision is bondage, and if you are convinced that you need to be circumcised in order to be saved than it will be a curse and you will have to be under the whole law of ceremonies to atone for your sins, therefore Jesus died in vain for you.

moving on.

Galatians 2:7-8 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),

Paul goes on telling that the problem of circumcision and uncircumcision was even afecting the apostles.


Galatians 2:12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.

Just after Paul mentioned the problem with Peter being a hypocrite, He says this:

Galatians 2:15-16 "We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

We can go to Romans as well and it will show you the same pattern.


Romans 3:27-31 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Very clear to me Brother, on verse 27 Paul talks about the law of works and the law of faith and on verse 30 He clearly identify the law of works by being circumcision.

And of verse 29, Paul asks, is He God only to the Jew? in other words is He God only of the circumcised?

And on verse 31 Paul clearly reafirms the law, Do we make void the law through faith, No we establish the Law.


Now look at something really interesting in Romans 9

Romans 9:30-32 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

Please pay attention to verse 30, Paul talks about a righteousness of faith but on verse 31 He talks about the law of righteousness but they did not attained it because of lack of faith,
Now look at verse 32
Paul Gave the reason why they did not attained the law of righteousness, because they did not seek it by faith,
but by Romans 9:32 by the works of the law.

Now wait a minute, there is a law of righteousness that they did not attain because they pursued it by the works of the law?

Interesting. does it make sense to you? they did not attain the law of righteousness because they porsued it by the works of the law?


===============================================
Quote: """"But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years...
(Gal 4:9-10)"""""

Again brother let me quote you what Paul said about going back into bondage.


Galatians 5:1-4 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Paul could not have being clearer than this brother. If you circumcise yourself than you have to keep the whole law of ceremonies and then Christ died in vain, you have just fallen from Grace.

Again

Galatians 2:3-4 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage),

Circumcision again,

=================================================

You quoted:""""From this passage in Romans it seems clear that the basis for judgment is "the secrets of men"(v.16), that is, their heart relationship to God."""

I am sorry brother but we are not talking about judgment we are talking about justification.

Yes, we will all be judged but when Paul said about secrets of men, this is what it is all about.

Mark 4:22 "For there is nothing hidden which will not be revealed, nor has anything been kept secret but that it should come to light.

This is what Paul meant when he said secret of men.

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man's all. 14 For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil.

Now, in Regard of Romans 2:13-15, you labored too hard to explain it, when in fact it is very simple.

Now, in Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 , we have: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man's all.

Now in Romans 2:13-15 we have the doers of the law will be justified.

Now, what I find interesting is the fact that whenever you find in the bible about the law being a curse, people will refer to it as being the whole law of God, now when scripture clearly says,
The doers of the law will be justified, you come up with this.

you quoted: """If what is hidden in a man is a hard and impenitent heart, a secret self-satisfaction, a false security based on self-righteousness, then his relationship to God is totally and absolutely wrong. Even though he knows the law (or the whole Bible!), and even though he does his best to serve God, he is and remains nothing more than a hearer of the law and not a doer of it, and will therefore be finally judged by that very law. His is a false security. If, however, God finds hidden in man a contrite heart, a broken heart and a tender conscience, then his relationship to God is what it should be. In that sense he is a doer of the law, and will be declared righteous in that day.""""

Now, you forgot to mention, verse 14,

Romans 2:14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,

How does that go with your understanding of this scripture?

Romans 2:15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)

What is this work of the law that is written in our hearts?

You forgot to mention verse 22

Romans 2:22 You who say, "Do not commit adultery," do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?

Please I would ask you to explain this text again including all the chapters mentioned.


and Again, How do you explaing circumcision of the heart?


Romans 2:26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision?


Romans 2:27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law?

 2007/12/18 18:43Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Romans 2:14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,

How does that go with your understanding of this scripture?

Romans 2:15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)

What is this work of the law that is written in our hearts?

You forgot to mention verse 22

Romans 2:22 You who say, "Do not commit adultery," do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?





The law of God is written on our hearts. That is all the apostle Paul is saying here, not that we are to keep the law. The law only has ONE purpose:


Galatians 3:23-26
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


The law is how we know that we have sin, that's all!:



Romans 7:5-13
5For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.


But because you are decieved by the teachings of Ellen White you are blinded and can't see this.





 2007/12/18 19:11





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