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 Re:

brentW-

I do study from KJV, which is a mere translation. I used ESV because it is avaialbe in esword and doesnt put all of the greek cross ref numbers after every word.

I will not answer your thought right now, just sit in the comfort of Gods sovereignty. He could have stopped anyone from being killed...

In Christ - Jim

 2007/12/11 11:21
brentw
Member



Joined: 2005/12/14
Posts: 440
Ohio

 Re:

Jim, I will be looking forward to your answer later on. :-)


_________________
Brent

 2007/12/11 11:30Profile
enid
Member



Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2680
Nottingham, England

 Re:

I guess we all saw this coming, scripture clashes to show our point of view.

So, here's another one, make of it what you will.

Eccles 3v1-8, 'For everything there is a season, a time or every purpose under heaven,

A time to be born and a time to die....

A time to kill and a time to heal...

A time to love and a time to hate, a time of war and a time of peace.

I haven't quoted the verses in full, you have them in your Bible, read them if you like.

God bless.

 2007/12/11 11:34Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

I was listening to a Paul Washer teaching the other day and I really like the way he put this. I am paraphrasing a bit, but you will get the point.

Paul Washer was asked by someone "What would you do if someone was in your house and was going to kill your family?" Paul replied, "That's easy, I would kill him." I do not know if Paul has always felt this way, or stills feels this way, but this is what he said in the teaching at this time.

In regards to Stephen, he sacraficed his own life for the gospel, he did not sacrife Paul's life, Peter's life or anyone elses life. To sacrifice yourself freely is one thing, to sacrifice others unfreely is completely different.

In the terms of devine order, the family comes before anyone else but God. It is my God given job to protect my family. The Lord gave me my family and commands me to look after them. The Lord did not command me to let some yahoo take their lives.

Although improtant, the intruders life comes second in regards to my families life. If an intruder wants the lives of my family, he will have to get through me before he can get to them.

Regardless of the situation, Gods grace and mercy far outway any sin of murder.


_________________
Christiaan

 2007/12/11 11:37Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hello...

Quote:
I think that the words of Christ, the entire new Testament, and the true Church on earth (outside of the US) stand as a testimony against this abomination. I wonder if anyone has read the book Jesus Freaks by VOM? America truly has her own Gospel and is making the world drunk on the wine of her fornications.

I’ve read the VOM book (Jesus Freaks)…and it is truly remarkable! The stories within that book of individuals who died for their faith are truly remarkable. I’ve actually purchased this book as a gift for several individuals. It is a 21st Century [i]Foxe’s Book of Martyrs[/i].

However, we need to be careful to distinguish between “martyrs” and mere “murder victims.” Were the individuals who were killed on Sunday even “martyrs” – or the victims of a desire of one man for mass murder? These individuals did not make a choice to die for their faith in this particular situation (at least, from what we understand from the media). They were simply at the “right place at the wrong time.”

I have read through many of Brother pastorfrin’s many “[i]Christian Non-resistance[/i]” threads. While I do not agree with the underlying conclusions of our CNR brethren, I do understand their perspectives. I have wrestled with the notions that are often presented in SermonIndex in regard to being involved in voting, politics, government, military and the extent to which believers may resist the efforts of this world (everything from verbal to physical resistance).

I have spoken with individuals who have considered patriotic believers as making an “idol” out of their nation. I think that these individuals fail to make the distinction between [i]patriotism[/i] and [i]nationalism[/i].

I am a patriot because I have a love for the people of my nation. These people [u]ARE[/u] the government of this nation (“[i]…of the people, for the people and by the people[/i]”). As such, I do hold a strong conviction that this nation’s Constitution provides the best form of liberty and government organization. Yes, I am sickened by certain amounts of sinfulness that is legally protected by this nation. But the principles that inspired the writers of the Constitution were created from a completely Protestant understanding of the Faith. These principles and core values were essential parts of the men who created our form of self government (a remarkably new idea in the 18th Century). This is a strong contrast with those nations (like Mexico and most of Latin America) that were founded upon a Roman Catholic tradition. Those nations were approved and promoted by the Roman Empire’s attitude of “crusade and crusade and conquer.” Healthy patriotism does not dictate for a people to make their nation as an idol. It is simply caring for your own people (who make up the government by representation and votes) and believing that (although flawed) this nation provides a proper form of government that can ensure the liberties we use to nurture our families and neighbors while practicing our faith. While I do believe that this form of government is the best a protecting those liberties, I am quick to recognize that there are other legitimate forms of government meant to protect and safeguard the rights of its people (who are just as important in the eyes of God as we are).

Nationalism, on the other hand, is a form of nation worship. Nationalism places a love and reverence for nation simply because it is our nation. It creates an attitude of defending a nation, king or dictator simply because they are our own (rather than for the ideas that formed the nation). Whereas patriotism is non-aggressive and fights only in defense of PEOPLE (particularly, the liberty of people here or elsewhere), nationalism uses war and force in order to expand territory and nation. Patriotism encourages its people to question its motives and status, and does not retaliate against those who question the motives (from either understanding or ignorance) or actions. Nationalism punishes (either physically or mentally) those who do not [i]go with the flow[/i] of the nation. Where patriotism looks for the good of the PEOPLE (who make up the nation), nationalism looks for the good of a NATION (which is over the people). Where patriotism cares for all of your neighbors, nationalism cares only for those who agree with you. Nationalism calls for people to fight and die for country and king, while patriotism shows people who willingly lay down their lives for their friends and neighbors.

It is interesting that there is a form of resistance in the Scriptures. Early believers protected Saul (later [i]Paul[/i]) by those who wanted him dead. He was lowered from the Damascus city walls in a basket in order to protect him from the governing Jews who wanted him dead (Acts 9:20-25). Why did Paul and these believers not want him to become an immediate martyr for his newfound faith? Why did he resist the ideas of the governing authority?

The New Testament gives some extremely strong commands. We told to “turn the other cheek” when slapped (Matthew 5:39). We are told to “give to everyone who asks” and to not request the return of items taken from us (Luke 6:29-30). If someone asks for something, we are supposed to give even more (Matthew 5:40-41)! We are supposed to give to everyone who wants to borrow from us (Matthew 5:42). I’ve often wondered what would become of those who practice complete and utter non-resistance if they applied those concepts to their entire lives. If word got around that someone actually lived up to those precepts, I imagine that there would be quite a few coatless, tired individuals without food, money, homes or vehicles. If this is so completely demanded from Scripture, then how can an individual provide for the needs of his family – or be considered WORSE than an infidel (I Timothy 5:8)?

In this situation, this woman security guard risked her life in the protection of many. She did not purposely [i]shoot to kill[/i] (from the interview that I saw), but she shot to [i]disable[/i] someone else from killing. In my opinion, she fulfilled the command of Jesus in John 15:13, “[i]Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends[/i].” If I had been in the same building at the same time, I don’t know what I would have done. But I do know that I would NOT have let a man shoot my wife or friends.

:-(

I suppose that it is easy to point the finger at those with whom we disagree as lost or part of “false Christianity” and “American-Babylonian church system.” Yes, there is a disgusting, evil and adulterous Babylonian system mentioned in the Word of God. This system is responsible for the “[i]blood of the saints[/i]” and the “[i]blood of the martyrs of Jesus[/i]” (Revelation 17:6). Whether or not this can be considered “America” is questionable at best. Many men of God have traditionally pointed toward a Roman system (city of seven hills) for its war against true Christianity to the point of bloodshed. I do think that we need to be careful about labeling those who simply disagree with us as being a part of this system. Too often, I fear, we use the following conclusion of the aforementioned verses only toward those who are obvious unbelievers. We should apply it to those true believers with whom we simply disagree:
Quote:
“But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.” – Matthew 5:44-45


_________________
Christopher

 2007/12/11 11:42Profile









 Re: Women security guards

A brief comment on this: When,in the name of Christ,some resort to allowing armed women to protect a supposed christian gathering all ought(but very few do)to know that something is desperately amiss in society as well as being completely ignorant as to what the christian community is to represent upon earth. Even Dietrich Bonhoeffer,a pacifist,chose to directly involve himself in a conspiracy to murder Adolph Hitler. Such injustices may cause even the most gentle and non-violent to persons to react in ways that are diametrically opposed and contrary to their beliefs. We are told not to render evil for evil. I would not consider my actions to be evil if I were protecting women and children from a psychotic beast of a man. I may not have the intent to kill him but I'd certainly have the intent of stopping him if I possibly could. If I had to physically restrain him and even tie him down until the authorities came I'd certainly do so. I am not loving my neighbor by allowing evil men to rape,rob,and kill them without making some attempt to prevent such from happening if I have opportunity. The question we must ask is whether God himself had the power to prevent this. All would answer with a hearty 'YES'. If we fail to see the wisdom and power of God displayed in evil acts we merely make him an impotent spectator much like ourselves. God's purposes are being accomplished in even the wickedest of acts of the wickedest men. Was Christ Himself in an accidental position or did God Himself determine that such would certainly be done(Acts 2:23,4:27).Again He says re: the wicked Pharoah, "For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens"(Rom.9:17,18). Example after example could be given of how God uses all for His own Glory which no true believer would dare deny. God makes no attempt to justify His actions as He is not obligated to do so. He cannot sin because He is under no Law. He always does what is right and good and what He pleases. He doesn't do something because it is right,it is right because He does it.
Unless and until we begin to grasp His Holiness and man's sinfulness these events and all others of their like will certainly perplex us at the least. I end with these words for us all to meditate on found in Luke 13:1-5 "There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish". RayinPA

 2007/12/11 12:18









 Re:

Jim said:

Quote:
He could have stopped anyone from being killed...



From where I'm standing... He did. Via an armed security guard. He utilized one of His children to stop evil. He's kinda funny that way.

Quote:
In this situation, this woman security guard risked her life in the protection of many. She did not purposely shoot to kill (from the interview that I saw), but she shot to disable someone else from killing. In my opinion, she fulfilled the command of Jesus in John 15:13, “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” If I had been in the same building at the same time, I don’t know what I would have done. But I do know that I would NOT have let a man shoot my wife or friends.



I know exactly what I would have done in that situation because I've been trained what to do in that situation... and she did exactly as I would have.

I hate to keep bringing this up, but it is a [b]godly[/b] thing to protect others, especially when it involves putting your own life on the line to do it. In my opinion there is nothing less selfish than that. "Greater love hath no man...".

There are many right here on this forum who believe the USA sinned by going to war with Nazi Germany. To me thats absurd. And this is really the same kind of thing.

Krispy

 2007/12/11 12:55









 Re:

Quote:
From where I'm standing... He did. Via an armed security guard. He utilized one of His children to stop evil. He's kinda funny that way.



This theology is a byproduct of constantine apostacy, roman catholicism and now the "great mystery whore" - american christianity.

All I need is one instance where the apostles or early Church killed their persecutors in the NT and I will recant. Seriously, that is all it will take. This was a blatant act of hatred against those who call themselves christians. I will defer back to my first post for anyone who hasn't read it.

In Christ - Jim

 2007/12/11 13:06









 Re:

Quote:
This theology is a byproduct of constantine apostacy, roman catholicism and now the "great mystery whore" - american christianity.



Hold on, brother... I need to go get my dictionary so I can understand what in the world you're talking about....

Your booklearnin' is a skosh overbearin' at times.

To be honest with you, brother... you and I sometimes play well together, and others times not so much. This has the potential to be one of those "not so much" times, therefore I will defer you to someone else on this issue. You dont want to hear what I think of men who will stand by and let evil happen.

And I agree with whoever it is who distinguished between martyrism and victims.

By the way, your rants against the church in America is really getting to be too much. Not every church in America is a babylonian whore. You are treading on very dangerous ground when you cast your net so wide because in doing so you are including many people and churches who are God's people.

I'd just caution you to tone it down a little bit.

Krispy

 2007/12/11 13:22
brentw
Member



Joined: 2005/12/14
Posts: 440
Ohio

 Re:

Jim,
You posted again...I like for you to answer my post...I hope your not trying to avoid it?

Are you saying that most people should of been killed by Gods will?? Because you're saying it was evil for that security guard to stop a man from murder! Rememebr he had alot of bullets left to shoot. The hate you speak of came from the man killing innocent people.
Again, was it evil to stop a man from killing people inside a church building??


_________________
Brent

 2007/12/11 13:24Profile





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