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MisterCheez
Member



Joined: 2006/2/22
Posts: 96
Colorado

 Tongues Should Be Tested

This has probably been discussed but my internet filter doesn't like the Google search...

---

A question regarding tongues:

Has anyone else experienced/wondered about false tongues interfering with, hindering or substituting for true Holy Spirit tongues - particularly in a recipient of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?

Personal experience and articles such as
[url=http://www.therefinersfire.org/more_about_tongues.htm]this[/url] have made me entirely uneasy about praying in a tongue.

Numerous brothers and sisters have mentioned doubts to me regarding tongues. This has only been confirmed by running the 1 John test on myself. Something seems to have gone amiss...

As an ex-tongues prayer said, "...I was beginning to understand that, far from being a deeper dimension of prayer, praying in tongues was an evasion -- a failure to grapple with the profundities of prayer."

This man suspected his tongues were of his own making. Perhaps some are, but what about the ones which are not? The ones which are too utterly uncontrived, complex, effortless and fluid? They are either demonic or Holy Spirit.

Any feedback helps. I want a powerful and experiential relationship with the Lord, but not a demonic counterfeit. I'm willing to lay down or take up...

For truth,
Brian


_________________
Brian Erickson

 2007/12/10 0:51Profile
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re: Tongues Should Be Tested

Hi mCheeze,

You will find lots and lots of threads about the dynamics of what you are asking. But just to answer your question directly, this scripture came to mind:

[i]2Co 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, [b]I believed, and therefore have I spoken;[/b] we also believe, and therefore speak; bold mine.
[/i]
If I believe that God has given me a tongue/prayer language then speak/pray, if not then don't. Makes it simple for me.

What is the 1 John test?


_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

 2007/12/10 1:28Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re: Tongues Should Be Tested

I want to start what I have to say by quoting a verse from Paul.

[b][color=FF0000]I Corinthians 14:18

I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:[/color][/b]

I want to first confront a statement made.

Quote:
As an ex-tongues prayer said, "...I was beginning to understand that, far from being a deeper dimension of prayer, praying in tongues was an evasion -- a failure to grapple with the profundities of prayer."



Paul disagreed with this man.

Now let me say this, I speak in tongues, I pray in tongues, I prophecy in tongues, I sing in tongues.

Having said that, the profound revelation, and comfort that God releases to me in prayer through the use of tongues is astounding.

I want to tell you a bit about my experience, maybe it will help.

I was filled with the Holy Spirit at the age of about 3, I spoke in tongues then, and have not ceased to do so since then. I am now 20 years old, almost 21, and the revelation of the need for tongues in my life grows greater constantly.

I am not a man who has much to speak about, so by praying in tongues, it allows me to encounter God, edify myself, and pray for the perfect will of God to come to pass. I do pray in english, but tongues is what I use more than anything.

I take the statement of Paul very seriously, why would he want to pray in tongues more than everybody? Is it possible that he too knew how desperately need tongues is? I believe so, I believe that he understood it so well that he said, "I would that all of you spoke in tongues".

It was Paul's desire that all would pray in tongues.


Quote:
Has anyone else experienced/wondered about false tongues interfering with, hindering or substituting for true Holy Spirit tongues - particularly in a recipient of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?



Yes, many times I have seen people who believed they were praying in tongues, but they were far from it.

Here is the reason why, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is fresh, and it is alive, the scripture says,


[b][color=FF0000]John 7:38

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.[/color][/b]

I have seen many people who have been filled with the Holy Spirit speak in genuine tongues and have a very powerful encounter with God.

I have seen many of them who after having that experience attempt to stay in that experience, they make the same sounds, say the same "words", and they think that they are speaking in tongues, or praying in tongues. But what they do not realize is that when they first surrendered to the Holy Spirit, they were stepping out in faith towards God that He would fill their mouth with "words".

But when they come again, they are relying on a past experience, that those past "words" are still praying in tongues. What they don't realize is that every time they go to open their mouth to pray, they must step out in the same faith, and the same surrender so that God can release fresh living waters out of them.
---------

I have also seen many people fake tongues, and have known people that faked it to relieve the pressure placed on them by the church they were in.

Tongues are absolutely real, absolutely powerful, and for my life absolutely essential.

If you are stepping out in faith towards God when you pray each time, and not just repeating an experience you had before, then by all means I believe you are genuinely praying or speaking in tongues.

I have to go now, but I would love to talk more, I kind of had to cut this a bit short, hope it helps. If you have any questions, be sure to ask, I am not only filled with the Spirit, but I have laid hands on others and they have received as well, so I can answer most questions I think.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/12/10 13:27Profile
MisterCheez
Member



Joined: 2006/2/22
Posts: 96
Colorado

 Re:

My first encounter with praying in tongues occured after a deliverance session (in which I was the person being delivered). I prayed with the ministers, asking the Holy Spirit to fill me. Suddenly, it seemed as if a wind went right down my throat and I said out loud "streams of living water" (not of my own intention). This was followed by the most effortless and peaceful tongue - I was overjoyed and the power of the Lord was present. My joy was so great that I stopped praying in the tongue and just layed on the floor.

The tongue was so uncontrived that I didn't pray in a tongue again for a week, thinking it just happened whenever God wanted. A friend told me that you pray "by faith" so I tried this a week later and the same tongue came pouring out. God's presence was powerful, the tongue only fostered better English prayer and often brought many things to mind which needed prayer. My brother received the Spirit and a tongue when I prayed for him.

However, after a couple months, a struggle with some rotten sins and possibly listening to a false teacher (out of ignorance) - there seemed to be some weird happenings when praying in a tongue. Sometimes the tongue would switch to English and some bizarre things were said causing me to stop praying and question if this was even the Lord. So I did some research and found a number of articles such as this (this is not an endorsement of that site - don't even know what it is):

[url=http://www.therefinersfire.org/more_about_tongues.htm]Tongues Should Be Tested[/url]

Frustrated by the bizarre feedback during tongues, I tried addressing the "spirit" causing the tongue - commanding it to confess Jesus as Lord who came in the flesh. This seem to cause a strange disturbance to the spirit/my flesh so I would renounce it and tell it to leave.

The Lord knows I only want His Spirit in/around me and can go w/o tongues if they are false. However, the fruit in my life since Baptism in the Holy Spirit and praying in tongues has far exceeded times before. Self control, discernment, discipline and other things have been so much easier than before.

So it would seem as if the Holy Spirit really is there but some demonic or fleshly influence tries to hinder praying in genuine tongues.

Quote:
What they don't realize is that every time they go to open their mouth to pray, they must step out in the same faith, and the same surrender so that God can release fresh living waters out of them.



This makes sense to me. In fact, when praying about tongues the other day, a little rhyme came to mind:

Tongues isn't just something mindless we do,
but when all of our mind, Lord, is focused on you.

"Mind" could also be written as "heart" I suppose. It seems like the flesh can get involved with praying in tongues.

More thoughts and especially prayers are appreciated.

Much gratitude,
Brian


_________________
Brian Erickson

 2007/12/10 15:30Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Hey MisterCheez - Brian,

I have some very simple advice for you,

I have experienced times in my life where I would go to pray in tongues, and I realized that I was just repeating stuff that I had said before without making an attempt to receive a fresh "word" or "prayer" from the Lord.

My father taught me when I was a boy what repentance was, ever since then, I have instinctively gone to the Lord for forgiveness whenever I stray from what His will is for me.

If you feel like what took place with you was not from the Lord, then there is a good chance that it was not from the Lord.

You should go before the Lord and seek Him with repentance and ask Him to cleanse your tongue and fill you with a fresh truth, and an honest prayer. Basically, just repent for what you feel like was wrong, and then go to someone who you trust that has the baptism of the Spirit and ask them to lay hands on you and pray for you.

I am very interested in going a little deeper on these stories you are telling me, and I realize that you may not want to broadcast this stuff to everyone on the site, but if you want to talk about it more in-depth, pm me and we'll talk more.



_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/12/10 16:15Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

here is an article that has blessed me greatly. May it help you also

The Truth About Speaking In Tongues

"Every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation (change)" (James. 1:17).

God never makes a mistake, He never changes and He gives only perfect gifts. Therefore when He gave the gift of "speaking in unknown languages" ("tongues") to the church on the day of Pentecost, He knew exactly what He was doing. The gift of "tongues" was a perfect gift. God has not changed His mind about the gift, for He never changes.

God knew the controversies that would surround this gift in the 20th century. Yet He felt the church needed this gift to fulfill its ministry.

Even major truths such as the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, the Humanity of Christ and the Person of the Holy Spirit have been opposed and have faced controversy in the history of Christendom. So it should not surprise us if the gift of "tongues" has been controversial too.

It is always best to stick exactly to what Scripture says on all doctrinal matters. Let us look then, with an unprejudiced mind, at every single verse in the Bible on the subject of "speaking in tongues":

Truth No. 1
Mark 16:17: [Jesus said,] "These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues... they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

Jesus said that some of the signs accompanying the company of "those who have believed" would be speaking in tongues, casting out demons and healing the sick. He did not say that ALL these signs would accompany EVERY believer. But He said that these signs would be found among the company of "those who have believed".

So every believer need not have all these gifts. Neither need every church have all these gifts. But they will be found in the whole church worldwide. The Holy Spirit sovereignly decides whom to give the gifts to.

Truth No. 2
Acts 2:4,7,11: "They were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance....... And the Jews from every nation marvelled saying....`We hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God.'"

The first time that believers were filled with the Holy Spirit, they ALL spoke in tongues. The "tongues" were languages that others understood immediately. So there was no need for the gift of interpretation.

Notice also in verse 4 that it was the persons themselves who began to speak in tongues and not the Holy Spirit. The Spirit did not move their tongues. The Spirit only gave them utterance. They spoke themselves.

In no gift, does the Holy Spirit take away freedom of choice from us. In fact, the fruit of the Spirit is "self-control" (Gal.5:23). Only demon-possessed people lose control of themselves. One who is filled with the Spirit will have more control over himself than anyone else. "The spirit of the prophets is subject to the control of the prophets"
(1 Cor.14:32).

Truth No. 3
Acts 10:46: "They were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God."

Here, in the house of Cornelius, all who were in his house were baptized in the Holy Spirit, at the same moment as they were converted to Christ. They spoke in "tongues" exalting God (praising Him) - not speaking to people, as was the case on the day of Pentecost.

Truth No. 4
Acts 19:6: "When Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying"

The Holy Spirit came upon the believers in Ephesus, when Paul laid hands on them. The "tongues" here seems to have been prophesying.

Note the following facts from the above instances in "Acts":

(a) In Acts 2 they received the Spirit, after water baptism. In Acts 10, they received the Spirit BEFORE water baptism.
(b) In Acts 2 and 10, they received the Spirit without anyone laying hands on them. In Acts 19, they received the Spirit after Paul laid hands on them.
(This proves that there is no standard pattern for receiving the Spirit. It could be either before or after water-baptism, and also with or without the laying on of hands).
(c) In Acts 8:14-18, when the disciples in Samaria received the Holy Spirit, there is no mention that they spoke in tongues. But Simon the magician did see some evidence (we are not told what it was) which made him want the same ability that Peter had.

Truth No. 5
1 Cor. 12:7,8,10: "But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit... to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues."

The gift of tongues is for "the common good" - the good of the church. This was written 25 years after the day of Pentecost. And the gift of tongues was still being given then by the Spirit "for the common good".

Truth No. 6
1 Cor.12:11: "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills".

This is perhaps the clearest Scripture that teaches that the Holy Spirit sovereignly decides to whom to give each gift (including the gift of tongues). We cannot dictate to Him whom He should give any gift to.

Truth No. 7
1 Cor. 12:28: "God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then... various kinds of tongues."

It is God Who appointed the gift of tongues in the church - for some purpose. So we should never oppose this gift, lest we be found opposing God. Remember that He has more wisdom than we have.

Truth No. 8
1 Cor. 12:30: "All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?"

All believers do not speak in tongues, just like all believers do not have the gifts of healing. So obviously, God does not feel that "tongues" is an essential gift for all believers - either for being holy or for being effective in His service. If it were, He would have given this gift to everyone.

Truth No. 9
1 Cor. 13:1: "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal."

Speaking in tongues without love is useless. All pride in those who speak in tongues, and all "looking down" on others who don't speak in tongues is because of a lack of love. Such unloving believers who speak in tongues are as repulsive to God as a noisy gong is to us.

Truth No. 10
1 Cor. 13:8: "Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away."

When perfection comes at Christ's return, there will be no more need for speaking in tongues.
In heaven, there will be no need for "tongues" - just like there will be no more need for Bible-knowledge or prophecy.

So "tongues" is a temporary gift needed only under the imperfect conditions prevalent on earth.
This explains why Jesus never needed the gift of tongues. It was because His mind was perfectly pure and because He lived in perfect communion with His Father at all times,

Truth No. 11
1 Cor. 14:2: "One who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries."

The gift of tongues mentioned here is obviously different from the one manifested on the day of Pentecost - for this gift is not to "speak to men but to God" and no-one can understand what the speaker is saying.

Truth No. 12
1 Cor. 14:4: "One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself
The gift of tongues enables a believer to build himself up spiritually.

Truth No. 13
1 Cor. 14:5: "I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying. But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, what shall I profit you, unless I speak to you either by way of revelation or of knowledge or of prophecy or of teaching?"

Paul wished that ALL spoke in tongues. This is yet another verse that clearly indicates that all believers do NOT speak in tongues.

Paul's wish here is similar to his wish that ALL should be single like he himself was (as he states earlier in the same letter - 1 Cor.7:7). Paul saw some benefits in being single. He also saw some benefits in speaking in tongues. But Paul recognised that just as God was sovereign in giving the "gift of being single" only to some believers, He was equally sovereign in giving the "gift of tongues" also only to some believers.

Therefore it is as foolish to expect all believers to speak in tongues as it is to expect all believers to be single!!

In the church-meeting, it is far better to prophesy (that is, to speak God's Word "to encourage, edify and console" others - 1 Cor. 14:3). If however a 'tongue' is interpreted, then it is equal to prophecy.

Truth No. 14
1 Cor. 14:9,13: "Unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear (understandable), how will it be known what is spoken?...Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret."
"Tongues" must be interpreted when used in a church meeting.

Truth No. 15
1 Cor. 14:14: "If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. What is the outcome then? I shall pray with the spirit and I shall pray with the mind. I shall sing with the spirit and I shall sing with the mind."

When praying in tongues, a person cannot understand what he is praying. But Paul still felt that he should pray and sing "with the spirit" (in tongues), as much as he did with his mind (in a known language).

Truth No. 16
1 Cor. 14:18: "I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all." Paul was thankful to God for this gift. So it must have helped him.

Truth No. 17
1 Cor. 14:19: "However, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind, that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue."
In the church, speaking in a known language is always the best.

Truth No. 18
1 Cor. 14:22: "Tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe, but to unbelievers"
Tongues are for a sign to unbelievers - as on the day of Pentecost.

Truth No. 19
1 Cor. 14:23: "If therefore the whole church should assemble together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?"

It is madness for all to speak in tongues in a church-meeting - for no one will understand what anyone is saying. (This must obviously be referring to people speaking in tongues individually and not when all are praying together - for in the latter case, we do not listen to the prayers of even those who pray in a known tongue.)

Truth No. 20
1 Cor. 14:26, 27: "What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and let one interpret;"

Not more than two or three should speak in tongues in a meeting of the church, but each "tongue" must be interpreted. "Interpretation" is not the same as "translation". Translation is "word for word". Interpretation is "expressing the thought in one's own words".

Truth No. 21
1 Cor. 14:39: "Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues."

This then is the conclusion. Don't forbid the exercise of the gift of tongues. But if you are desiring a gift, seek for the gift of prophecy more than for the gift of tongues.

The True And The Counterfeit

There is a certain amount of mystery about the gift of tongues, as all those who have received the gift will acknowledge - if they are honest. We do not know everything about it. We know only in part (1 Cor.13:12).

As one who has spoken in tongues for the past 26 years, let me add a few words concerning what I presently understand about the gift, from my own experience.

When a person speaks in tongues, his spirit (heart) speaks forth syllables (directly from his heart to his mouth, bypassing his mind) and thus he pours out whatever is in his heart to God - whether that be an overflow of joy or a burden caused by sorrow or discouragement. Thus the pressure on his heart is relieved. That is how he is 'edified'

As we saw earlier in Acts 2:4, when anyone speaks in tongues, it is the person himself who speaks, and not the Holy Spirit. The believer forms the syllables himself, just as he does when speaking in a known language. The only difference is that now, he does NOT use a known language to pray, but concentrating on the Lord, speaks forth syllables with his mouth, straight from his heart, bypassing his mind - knowing that God understands the longings and pressures in his heart, even if he cannot understand himself what he is saying.

Unburdening himself like that in moments of pressure helps a believer, especially if his mind is too tired to pray in a known language. We may not be able to explain how this works, but it does.

Let us now look at the gift of interpretation: As we have already seen, interpretation of a tongue is equivalent to prophesying. So this gift will usually be given by the Spirit to one who has the gift of prophecy as well.

In a church-meeting, if someone speaks in a tongue, one of those having the gift of prophecy (usually one of the elders), if he is walking in the light of God, will find a thought being impressed on his mind, if the "tongue" is genuinely from God. He speaks forth that thought in his own words - for it is not a translation, but an interpretation.

If another elder (who also has the gift of interpretation) had interpreted the "tongue", the interpretation would have been the same (although couched in that elder's own words). This would be the case if both elders were in perfect touch with the Lord.

Since no revelation from God can contradict what is written in the Bible, the interpretation will be in accordance with Scripture - just like all true prophecy will also be in line with the Scriptures.

Some who are sceptical of spiritual gifts have asked this question: If a "tongue" that was interpreted in a meeting, is copied on to a tape and someone else (with the gift of interpretation) in another p lace is asked to interpret it, will the interpretation be the same as the first one? The answer is: It should be, if both interpreters had a perfect understanding of the mind of the Lord. If the interpretation is different in content, (and not just in words), that would only indicate that one or both interpreters are not in such perfect touch with the Lord as to understand His mind perfectly. That is not abnormal, because no believer in the world is in such perfect touch with the Lord as to know His mind perfectly.

The following example will prove this fact beyond any doubt: Suppose you have to speak in a meeting and you have a particular message on your heart which you feel is the burden of the Lord for that meeting. Then, if you are unable to be at that meeting and someone else speaks in your stead, strictly speaking, he should give the same message as you had on your heart (even if it be in his own words). If that brother doesn't give the same message as you had on your heart, it would indicate that one of you did not have a perfect understanding of the Lord's mind for that meeting. So we see that believers could fail such a test even when giving a message in a known language.

That's why the Bible tells us to judge even a prophet's message (1 Cor.14:29). Similarly, we should judge, all messages in "tongues" and their "interpretations". What should we judge in such cases? Just this: Whether our spirit witnesses that the utterance (prophecy, tongues or interpretation) was Scriptural (and from the Lord) or not.

We are warned (in 1 John 4:1) not to believe every spirit but to "test the spirits whether they are of God". So every time, we hear "tongues" or interpretation in public, we must test it in our spirits. Many of the "supernatural utterances" we hear may not be from God. We must always reject a prophecy (or any part of it), a "tongue", or an interpretation, if we feel uneasy about it in our spirits, for any reason.

It is the unquestioning acceptance of everything supernatural and abnormal that has brought tremendous confusion into Christendom in this century - and tremendous dishonor to the Lord's Name as well.

Notice these facts in all instances of speaking in tongues in "Acts" :

(a) In every case, the speaking in tongues was spontaneous;
(b) In every case, all spoke in tongues - there were no exceptions;
(c) In every case, there was no coaching or urging or instruction given on how to speak in tongues;

Today however, in most places, none of the above characteristics are found. Only where the gift of tongues is spontaneously received without any coaching, can we conclude that it could be genuine.

Of all the "speaking in tongues" that I have heard, my spirit has borne witness to only a small percentage of it as genuine. Most of the rest I have felt was an attempt to imitate the gift - either to be accepted by others in a group or to impress them. A small percentage could even be of demonic origin. My observations are based on the fruit and the results that I have seen in the lives of many people in many lands. Speaking and singing in tongues often appears to be a form of "exhibitionism" in many churches - and exhibitionism is characteristic of little children.

It is also a well-established fact that, at this present time, the maximum exploitation of believers for financial gain is practised by those preachers and pastors who claim to "speak in tongues". Most of the cults in the 20th century have also developed from tongue-speaking groups.

My advice to all believers therefore is: "Avoid churches that major on the gifts of tongues and healing - because many of them go to dangerous extremes and usually don't have spiritually-minded leaders. Seek instead for fellowship with a church that emphasises holiness and disciple-making primarily, that accepts the genuine gift of tongues and that does not covet your money or seek to control your life."

Let me also emphasise that we need to use our mind (renewed by the Holy Spirit) if we are to understand God's will and His Word aright (Rom.12:2). Many believers tend to despise their minds. Our mind is to be like a wife. She should not be the head of the home. But she should not be killed either!! Jesus is our husband and head. Our mind should be submissive to Him through our heart.

In a nutshell then, here is a bit of sane advice on "tongues":

"If God gives you the gift of tongues, receive it and exercise it. Speak forth the syllables from your heart to God when you are alone with Him - anywhere - and especially when your heart is under pressure (through discouragement) or overflowing with joy. If you don't have the gift, don't worry about it. But be open to the Lord to receive it, at all times. Don't be against it and don't get into a frenzy to receive it. God will give it to you, if He wants you to have it, without any frenzy on your part. At the same time, don't believe that everything you see and hear in Christendom is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Test everything. Use your God-given faculties of discernment. If you don't have the gift of tongues, don't consider yourself inferior to those who have it. And if you do have the gift, don't imagine that it makes you spiritual or superior to those who don't have it. (Paul and the Corinthian Christians both spoke in tongues. But Paul was a spiritual giant, while the Corinthians were carnal!!)."

What Is Absolutely Essential

What is absolutely essential for all of us is to be endued with the Holy Spirit's power. It is power, and not speaking in tongues that is the evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:8).

The Holy Spirit is to be received by faith (Jn.7:37-39), just as we received the forgiveness of our sins - on the basis of Christ's merit alone, and not on our own merit. We do not receive the Gift of the Spirit by fasting or praying or by any other work. He is a Gift (Acts 2:38).

We ask and receive - immediately by faith - and go forth believing in God's promise that He gives the Holy Spirit more readily to those who ask Him, than any earthly father would give food to a hungry son (Lk.11:13). If we are unsure about having received the Spirit, we can ask God to give us an assurance. He will not deny us such an assurance.

But we need to be filled with the Spirit continually (because we are leaky vessels - Eph.5:18), just like we need to be forgiven continually (because we sin - often without knowing it - Matt.6:12).

The devotion of our heart to Christ is far more important than our speaking in tongues. "Do you love Me more than everything else?", was our Lord's question to Peter, before commissioning him for His service. Arguments about "speaking in tongues" are therefore a diversion arranged by Satan to sidetrack believers from total devotion to Christ.

The greatest Christians in the world have been those who loved the Lord Jesus supremely - whether they spoke in tongues or not. Some like Peter, James, John and Paul spoke in tongues. Others like John Wesley, Charles Finney, D.L.Moody, A.B.Simpson, William Booth, C.T.Studd and Watchman Nee never spoke in tongues (as far as we know). But they all received the baptism in the Holy Spirit, they all loved the Lord with all their hearts and they ALL walked the way of the cross. These truths were central in their lives. Other things were secondary.

Let us follow their example and we won't go wrong..

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Zac Poonen


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2007/12/10 16:19Profile
MisterCheez
Member



Joined: 2006/2/22
Posts: 96
Colorado

 Re:

Thank you for the article, I will study it.

The question of false tongues in believers is huge to me. No one wants to utter blasphemies out of ignorance. The prevalance of false tongues in cult/pagan groups makes me wonder how many believers may have sought tongues in the flesh and received a fleshly or even demonic tongue. Is it possible to ask God for bread but then to go seek a stone?

If this is truly happening, then we need to be checking ourselves and setting others free of any such deception.


_________________
Brian Erickson

 2007/12/10 16:50Profile









 Re: Tongues Should Be Tested


MisterCheez wrote:

Quote:
The question of false tongues in believers is huge to me. No one wants to utter blasphemies out of ignorance. The prevalance of false tongues in cult/pagan groups makes me wonder how many believers may have sought tongues in the flesh and received a fleshly or even demonic tongue. Is it possible to ask God for bread but then to go seek a stone?

If this is truly happening, then we need to be checking ourselves and setting others free of any such deception.

John 15:26 (NKJV)
But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

John 16 (KJV)
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [i]that[/i] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [i]it[/i] unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [i]it[/i] unto you.


One way that whole congregations are being opened up to demonic activity, is through being consciously led into activities which disregard the above two passages of scripture... That is, the people are told to worship the Holy Spirit.

In the past, I was amongst believers who carried those little choruses to the Father and the Son, into a third verse dedicated to the Holy Spirit - presumably in honour of the Trinity.

But this is not scriptural, and while it may not lead to serious harm when done occasionally and out of ignorance, it is, if done deliberately, repetitively (even if in apparent ignorance) spiritually unsound and dangerous.

The way to invite the Holy Spirit into one's life, is to ask the Father. It's that simple.

Luke 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [i]your[/i] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?


Primarily, the Holy Spirit is given to enable us to become sons of God.

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [i]even[/i] to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Romans 8
10 And if Christ [i]be[/i] in you, the body [i]is[/i] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [i]is[/i] life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [i]him[/i], that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [i]are[/i] not worthy [i]to be compared[/i] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.


No-one should be seeking tongues in isolation, nor, as the sole manifestation of the baptism in the Spirit and new birth. Whoever has made those necessary transactions with God in response to His word preached, such as faith, repentance and the receiving of salvation, should be open to receive [i]whatever grace[/i] comes to adorn their life because the Holy Spirit is pleased to dwell in them.

There is plenty in the New Testament about other manifestations of the Spirit's presence. I believe as one is faithful in the exercise of one gift, one is given more. Some might call that [i]maturity[/i] but the exercise of faith, and subsequent growth, are necessary.

2 Corinthians 5
... God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [i]you[/i] by us: we pray [i]you[/i] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him [i]to be[/i] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


Ben's exhortation to seek forgiveness when there is a spiritual logjam, is appropriate when given the fuller context of the purpose of the presence of the Spirit in our lives, of which speaking in tongues may be a small part, only.

I think it is possible to get hung up on observing the gift. I'd had no problem speaking in tongues when the Spirit brought it forth, until I came to SI and found people making fun of the genuine thing. Instrospection is a killer.

'yadayadaydayada' is [i]nothing like[/i] the tongues I've heard or spoken. I [i]have[/i] heard gibberish also, but I would [u]never[/u] attribute such a display [i]to the Holy Ghost[/i]. :-o


I realise I've left some gaps in this topic, mainly about demons, deception, confusion and chaos.

So here is some tried (by me) advice from an elder:

Follow after righteousness, and demons will flee (from you).

They did.

In other words, if your heart is set on being in right relationship with God Himself, and you stay within the guidance of scripture, it's nigh impossible to fall foul of lesser entities. But, the route is radical and there has to be a real willingness to let God lay the axe to the root of every hindrance to the flow of His life.

Then John 7:38
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

 2007/12/10 18:30
MisterCheez
Member



Joined: 2006/2/22
Posts: 96
Colorado

 Re:

Quote:
Follow after righteousness, and demons will flee (from you).



Will do. Thank you.


_________________
Brian Erickson

 2007/12/10 18:52Profile









 Re: Tongues should be tested

Quote:
So it would seem as if the Holy Spirit really is there but some demonic or fleshly influence tries to hinder praying in genuine tongues.



Hello MrCheez,

I can relate to what you are saying. I found that particularly when doubt comes into the mind, the demonic influence gets a foothold. The devil is trying it on. Trying to get you to doubt what you have. The moment you recognize this and begin to pray again in faith, ignoring what has happened, that evil influence departs!

It is simply a matter of switching your mind (or heart?) back into faith, concentrating on the Lord with your whole heart and ignoring the interruption. It is not even necessary to battle with the demons, or command them. Just simply set your mind back to praying in faith. The power of the Holy Spirit in us is so amazing. It builds one's faith up immensely knowing that God gets all the glory when this happens. Soon you will find out that they can no longer bother you. Because you know what their game is. We are overcomers and our minds set on Him is where He wants us.

This is a wonderful gift the Lord bestows and the enemy would love to stop it.

May you be richly blessed as you continue on praying in the Spirit.

Jalim









 2007/12/10 19:15





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