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 Re: I'm not joking ... who do you believe killed Jesus?



Hi David,

I have not disputed that king David was a prophet. And I've found the verse you had in mind - 2 Samuel 6:17.

Quote:
Remember when saul offered burnt offerings[acting as priest] God striped the kingdom from him
...

Saul was in forbidden territory.
Only a priest can offer burnt offerings.

True. I found that bit also, and Samuel was not pleased. Seems to be a lot to do with heart attitudes, and [i]obedience[/i] to the Lord's explicit leading.


 2007/12/30 18:51









 Re:

Quote:
To boil this down to a few words, what I was realising is how seriously significant it is that Paul related 'faith' to Abraham's pre-circumcision state. Abraham is the Jews' primary link with the Gentiles - their Adamic nature. This is what Jesus came to address: sin.
Associated with this realisation was the way the elders and chief priests willingly said 'His blood be upon us and on our children'.


They understood something about their very real participation in His forthcoming death as a fact, even if they didn't understand He was their eternal sacrifice. But both before His death and after Pentecost, there were those who recognised how He fulfilled scripture, and they believed on Him.





Dorcas, Actually it was Adam and Eve's sin that promised a redeemer in Genesis 3:15.

Job knew of the redeemer and believed in the resurrection of the dead.

However Gentiles, Pagam Gentiles as a whole did not know or believe in a resurrection that was IN CHRIST only. This was one of the major arguments between the Jews as well, not believing in the resurrection. Jesus preached. **I AM** the resurrection.

A gentile would have no reason to kill Jesus Christ for claiming to be God for one, as this was an abomination to the Jews, not Gentiles.

The Prophecy stating....I was wounded in the house of a friend is not about Gentiles, but Jews.

When He came to HIS OWN, and HIS OWN received Him not...this is referring to the Jews, not Gentiles. HIS OWN referrs to the House of His friends...the Jews.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

 2007/12/30 19:15









 Re: I'm not joking ... who do you believe killed Jesus?



Hi Katy,

Season's greetings to you on the turn of the calendar to 2008. :-)

Apologies for the length, which I decided was better than [i]two[/i] posts.

Quote:
A gentile would have no reason to kill Jesus Christ for claiming to be God for one, as this was an abomination to the Jews, not Gentiles.

You're right. Their actual involvement was from a different perspective. How could those actually crucifying Him, have had any idea they were outworking of [u]God's[/u] will? (That's rhetorical.)

Quote:
However Gentiles, Pagam Gentiles as a whole did not know or believe in a resurrection that was IN CHRIST only.

But I think many of them believed in some sort of resurrection, and [i]like Jews[/i], they didn't know how that would work [u]in their experience[/u].

Do you [i]not[/i] see that God's word to Eve was fulfilled in the creation of a family - Jacob who became [u]Israel[/u] - into which the Saviour would be born and recognised by [b]the whole world population[/b] [i]wherever He is preached?[/i]

(Of course) I understand that at the time of His arrival, it was [u]the Jews[/u] who were [i]expecting[/i] Him - [i]of course[/i] - on behalf of the whole of humanity - because [i]they had been prepared for this role[/i] in the salvation of [u]the world[/u].

But to suggest that [i]therefore[/i] there was no consciousness [i]in the Gentile world[/i] of [u]the God of Israel[/u], I trust you will reconsider.

Remember Rahab? [color=0000CC]'I know that the LORD has given you the land, that the terror of you has fallen on us, and that all the inhabitants of the land are fainthearted because of you. For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to the two kings of the Amorites who [i]were[/i] on the other side of the Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom you utterly destroyed. And as soon as we heard [i]these things,[/i] our hearts melted; neither did there remain any more courage in anyone because of you, for the LORD your God, He [i]is[/i] God in heaven above and on earth beneath...'[/color] - Joshua 2:9 - 11.

In general, archaeological evidence shows us that the peoples of the world in their earliest generations after Noah, [i][b]believed in[/i][/b] an afterlife of some sort, because of what we find in their graves. Then, you have another witness to the hope of salvation in Job, the Elamite. (Elam was a grandson of Noah.)

Thus, the way history reads (to me), God did soundly keep the consciousness of His promise of a Saviour, by calling Abram. Incidentally, when Abram was born, Noah was still alive. (Check it out in Genesis 11.) Although Adam had died before Noah was born, his father Lamech would have known Adam personally, (one would guess). Then Methuselah, Noah's grandfather, had lived five years longer than Lamech.

In the light of these family relationships and the oral history being passed down the generations [i]until Moses[/i], it is difficult to believe that [u]all[/u] Gentiles had [i]completely forgotten[/i] the promise of a Saviour.

Job 19:23 - 28
[color=0000CC]Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book! That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!

[b]For I know my redeemer liveth, and he shall stand at the latter [/b][i]day[/i] [b]upon the earth[/b]: and [i]though[/i] after my skin [i]worms[/i] destroy this [i]body[/i], yet in my flesh shall I see God: whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; [i]though[/i] my reins be consumed within me. But ye should say, 'Why persecute we him, seeing the root of the matter is found in me?'[/color]

It is interesting that David later prophesies somewhat counter to Job's recognition of his own mortality.

Psalm 16
[color=0000CC]7 I will bless the LORD who has given me counsel;
My heart also instructs me in the night seasons.
8 I have set the LORD always before me;
Because [i]He is[/i] at my right hand I shall not be moved.
9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoices;
[b]My flesh also will rest in hope[/b].
10 [b]For You will not leave my soul in Sheol,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption[/b].
11 [b]You will show me the path of life;
In Your presence [i]is[/i] fullness of joy;
At Your right hand [i]are[/i] pleasures forevermore[/b]. [/color]


Also, Acts 13:22 - 42; Isaiah 49.

Quote:
This was one of the major arguments between the Jews as well, not believing in the resurrection.

The argument between Sadducees and Pharisees about resurrection, is a highly rarified religious discussion within its own context. Even these two factions are uniquely implicated in Jesus' death.


Katy I would appreciate greatly, if you could take on board that I do understand Jesus was Jewish, and although I once started a thread 'Is Jesus Jewish now?' I came to the conclusion that He is, which - with the essential doctrine of the circumcision of the heart - has unavoidable implications for the spiritual identity of [i]all believers[/i]. Maybe you have thought I didn't understand this, because of other things I've written, but, I hope it's clear now, that I do.

This is the reciprocity of the way God has made Jews and Gentiles indispensible to each other. There is no disputing we all suffered from the fallen Adamic nature, and Paul's allusion to Jesus as 'the last Adam' (1 Cor 15:45) is, therefore, undeniably justifyable. That was what the Lord had been re-inforcing to my understanding as I woke up that day (mentioned in the earlier post). (It was not because Corinth was a Gentiles-only church - Acts 18:1 - 4).

The point of this thread has not changed though, and all that has been shown by our discussion, is that if any Gentile had thought to wriggle out of their part in the need for Jesus death, through saying 'the Jews [i]killed[/i] Him', God also had that exit blocked [i]from eternity[/i].

There is an [color=000099][b]awe-full[/b][/color] truth embedded here also, which is that had Gentiles [i]not[/i] been implicated in His actual death [i]so unmistakably[/i], there could have been a dispute over whether they were entitled to salvation through Christ - even though I have shown that the promise was always to the whole human race.

Peter's surprise at the Holy Spirit falling in Cornelius' house gives another insight into the distance which had developed between Jews and the rest of the world. But praise God, as you often remind us, He has broken down that wall of partition and made One New Man in Christ.


To God be the glory, great things He has done;
So loved He the world that He gave us His Son,
Who yielded His life an atonement for sin,
And opened the life gate that all may go in.


[i]Praise the Lord, praise the Lord,
Let the earth hear His voice!
Praise the Lord, praise the Lord,
Let the people rejoice!
O come to the Father, through Jesus the Son,
And give Him the glory, great things He has done.[/i]

O perfect redemption, the purchase of blood,
To every believer the promise of God;
The vilest offender who truly believes,
That moment from Jesus a pardon receives.

[i]Refrain[/i]


[url=http://ingeb.org/spiritua/togodbet.html]http://ingeb.org/spiritua/togodbet.html[/url]

 2008/1/1 12:35









 Re:

Quote:
There is an awe-full truth embedded here also, which is that had Gentiles not been implicated in His actual death so unmistakably, there could have been a dispute over whether they were entitled to salvation through Christ - even though I have shown that the promise was always to the whole human race



Seasons Greetings Linn.

You have read Romans 5 haven't you?

You say [u]there could have been [/u] a dispute????


Was there? Is there?

Paul makes no such approach to the Gospel in Galatians to Gentiles.

Wasn't a promise made to Abraham that all families of the earth will be blessed...those who are Abraham's spiritual seed. All families of the earth are Jew and Gentile.

This is why I reminded you of Adam & Eve. As in Adam All die, as in Christ will all( who put their faith in Him) be made alive.

After the Law was proved it could not be kept, God said now ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God...And the Gospel is offered to All.

We were bound for hell long before Jesus was killed.

Do you believe one is not saved until they confess they killed Jesus?? Or is it that we confess we are sinners?...in need of a Savior?

For God so loved the world, that HE GAVE His only begotten son, that who so ever believes in Him will not parish but have eternal life......

The Lamb was slain from before the foundation of the world.


Love in Christ
Katy-Did

 2008/1/2 20:08





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