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 Re: I'm not joking ... who do you believe killed Jesus?



Hello Phillip

Quote:
Jesus set him right by telling him he had no power even to be king unless it had been given him from the Father, especially power to kill Jesus or let Him go. Jesus is speaking of The Father as having all power on earth and in heaven... And because of the relationship The Father and the Son had, as you said, that is why Jesus gave all the power responsibility to the Father, keeping with His obeying the Father even unto death. [b]Not that God had the greater sin[/b], but that those that delivered Him to Pilate.

I think this is where we have to let the buck rest with God, in the same way as Jesus took upon Him our sin.... In [i]that sense[/i] He took responsibility for 'sin', and in [i]that sense[/i] His Father is implicated. This is the mystery of God, that He should die for us, and that those of us who receive [i]His death[/i] on our behalf, find that we have been [i]released from sin[/i]. It's a miracle!!!


The reason I started this thread though, was to explore whether the brethren here are willing to line up behind Jesus' own prophecy about His death.

He said 'the Gentiles .... will kill me...' [b]Mark 10:33, 34[/b]

[b]Matthew 20[/b]
17 Now Jesus, going up to Jerusalem, took the twelve disciples aside on the road and said to them,
18 "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death,
19 "[b]and deliver Him to the Gentiles[/b] to mock and to scourge and [b]to crucify[/b]. And the third day He will rise again."

[b]Luke 18[/b]
31 Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of Man will be accomplished.
32 "For He will be delivered to [b]the Gentiles[/b] and will be mocked and insulted and spit upon.
33 "They [b]will[/b] scourge and [b]kill Him[/b]. And the third day He will rise again."


Here (above) we have three almost identical accounts of this prophecy, regardless of both Peter and Paul afterwards laying [i]responsibility[/i] for His death on the Jews, who had said 'His blood be on us and on our children' (Matt 27:25), if you were a disciple living through that week, what you would have [u]seen[/u] was the Jews handing Him over to the Gentiles who did [u]actually[/u] oversee His death [i]just as Jesus had said[/i].

Jesus' death [i]isn't[/i] straightforward or ordinary. I'm not suggesting it is. But it was prophesied several ways in the Old Testament, when it [i]was[/i] obscure and lacking in vital detail.

Now, I'm beginning to realise the groundswell of interpretation (that) 'the Jews killed Him', is not merely a misrepresentation of scripture: it is a wildly inaccurate presentation of [u]a fact[/u] which later (that is, in the New Testament), was clearly and reliably recorded for us - both its prediction and its fulfilment.


Do you see what I mean?

 2007/12/10 17:07
poet
Member



Joined: 2007/2/16
Posts: 231
Longview WA

 Re:

The father paid the price by giving his son
Jesus paid the price by being the sacrafice.
he was the bride price
The jewish leadership, sandherin, plotted his death and orchestrated his demise
the Romans had the legal authority to crusify
Jesus, and did so under great deress.
But mostly of all, we, crusified the Lord of Glory. because that was the only way for God to
have a restored relationship with his creation.
We a sinnful people, Crusified Jesus the Christ,
Our Lord and Saviour.


_________________
howard

 2007/12/10 18:41Profile









 Re: I'm not joking ... who do you believe killed Jesus?


poet said

Quote:
But mostly of all, we, crusified the Lord of Glory. because that was the only way for God to have a restored relationship with his creation. We a sinnful people, Crusified Jesus the Christ,

I agree that between the Jews' plotting, and the Gentiles executing the death, we all take responsibility through the sin which made it necessary (in God's eyes).

Quote:
the Romans had the legal authority to crusify Jesus, and did so under great deress.

The reason this is important is because [u]Jesus prophesied it[/u].

This is a fulfilled prophecy, with as much weight as others regarding aspects of His life and death:

Matthew 26:56
But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

Matthew 27:9
Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;

Matthew 27:35
And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

Luke 22:16
For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

Luke 24:44
And he said unto them, These [i]are[/i] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [i]in[/i] the prophets, and [i]in[/i] the psalms, concerning me.

John 13:18
I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John 19:28
After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

 2007/12/10 18:58
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Dorcas, maybe this does not have to be an [b]either[/b] [i]or[/i]?



For instance, am thinking of

"Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, [i]saying[/i], Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us."


- Psalm 2 verses 1-3(KJV)



"For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."


- Acts chapter 4 verses 27-28(KJV)




I remember reading or hearing somewhere the suggestion that there was a significance in all of this relating to a sacrifice under the Old Covenant. It might have been suggested it was in Leviticus chapter 16?



If that is so, how about Leviticus 16:21, Matthew 26:62-67 and 27:1-2?







Chris



_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/12/11 0:22Profile









 Re:

Quote:
God the Father can have no sin, so the ones that delivered Jesus to Pilate are the ones that have the sin. Namely Judas in the Garden with a kiss and the Sanhedrin and Chief Priests.



Absolutely! Maybe a little history here would help too.

There are in the OT two comings of Messiah, one as KING ( still future) and one as redeemer.

The Jews overlooking redeemer were waiting for King...He is after one in the same. They scoffed at this KING who was born in a manger, and rode through the streets on a donkey.

Funny, when Herod heard of the Birth of Jesus...King of the Jews, He set out then to kill every child under the age of 2 in order to make sure this would not happen.

When the three wise men saw the Star in the sky, they too knew something miraculous has happened. Herod asked that they report back to him concerning this birth, yet after seeing Mary Joseph and Jesus , fled from Harrod, not going back but went out another way.

Something must have happened to them (conversion possibly). Interesting are the gifts they brought, especially myrrth...which has a deep significance. All have a deep significance really.

Judas betrayed Jesus because Judas thought Jesus was going to become King and overthrow the Roman empire and restore the Kingdom to Israel at that time.

Because this didn't happen, ( the way they thought it was to happen) the Jews betrayed Jesus, mocking Him with a crown of thorns and the words over his head in a mocking way...King of the Jews.

The true spiritual Israel knew the redeemer came first, just as John the Baptist said...behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

Jesus will come back as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, but He will come now in ALL His Glory. When He first came, he left that Glory and humbled Himself and became obedient unto death. John 17 you see Jesus Praying in the Garden.....Glorify me with the Glory I had with you before or from the beginning.

Well, He has that Glory now, and will return in ALL His Glory, and that Glory will be the Glory that is Glorified in his Saints at His return...Thessalonians!!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

 2007/12/11 7:28









 Re: I'm not joking... who do you believe killed Jesus?



ChrisJD said

Quote:
Dorcas, maybe this does not have to be an either or?

Chris, my point is that it very much does have an either or, and if we accept what scripture tells us about the killing, it will open up other scripture to our understanding; it will utterly remove speculation about the interpretation of those scriptures which depend on us understanding what Jesus is telling us.

I fully appreciate that both Jews and Gentiles are implicated in the need for Jesus' death as the sacrificial Lamb of God; no contest. But I started this thread to draw attention to one particular prophecy.

We are always telling each other that scripture interprets scripture. I have come to appreciate this truth, and am applying it here.

I looked at the verses you offered, and would reply with Romans 3, where Paul conclusively establishes that no-one is righteous.

We all know from Genesis that no-one is righteous, and in Romans Paul covers every possible angle to establish that death came upon all men since Adam, and we [u]all[/u] needed a Saviour.

Now, in so asking for strict textual analysis, I am not at all denying those parts of scripture where the [i]reasons[/i] for Jesus' death are expounded.

All I am looking for here, is a public acknowledgement that Jesus' prophecy about who would 'kill' Him, did come true.

Do we have that?

 2007/12/11 8:11









 Re:

Quote:
All I am looking for here, is a public acknowledgement that Jesus' prophecy about who would 'kill' Him, did come true.



I can appreciate that Dorcas, and agree with you.

In all truth if the original Herod had found Mary Joseph and Jesus before they left town, Herod would then be responsible for the death of Jesus.

But all this was in God's hands and His time had not yet come.

Therefore ALL are guilty, and have come short of the Glory of God.

Rome has always been afraid of any King as the last King of Israel was killed by Rome when they raised Jerusalem killing that King...probably thinking Jesus was back???!!!

That's another thread.

But there will be another time also in History when the King, this time in ALL His Glory returns and does overthrow Gentile world power, setting up the Kingdom the Gentile world has always been in fear of, as was Herod to begin with.

Added ChrisJD's Scripture here:

"Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us."


- Psalm 2 verses 1-3(KJV)


Love in Christ
Katy-Did

 2007/12/11 8:35









 Re: I'm not joking ... who do you believe killed Jesus?



Katy said

Quote:
The true spiritual Israel knew the redeemer came first, just as John the Baptist said...behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

Indeed. But because He was obedient to death

Philippians 2 (Young) (Isa 45:23 - end)
9 wherefore, also, God [u]did[/u] highly exalt him, and [u]gave[/u] to him a name that [i]is[/i] above every name,
10 that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow--of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth--
11 and every tongue may confess that Jesus Christ [i]is[/i] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Katy,

I know you hold that Jesus will return as King. I accept this as a true statement. But I want you to know that very many Christians acknowledge that He [u]was King when He was born[/u]. That's why there was a star in the sky and the wise men knew to bring Him gold - and it was the first of their gifts.

Then [u]He was King when He was crucified[/u] - painful as that is.

There are many many hymns acknowledging Jesus as King [u]now[/u] - by which I mean that ever since Pentecost, and the insight which is given by the Holy Spirit, Christians have understood He is [u]already acknowledged as King in heaven[/u].

I have heard it explained that when they sought to make Him 'a king' on earth, He [i]had[/i] to refuse (by running away), because He is [i][u]the[/u][/i] King! Amen.

Especially in Revelation 5, where His work on earth is described in the past tense, we see that He already has recived 'power and riches and wisdom and strength and honour and glory and blessing'. I've come to understand that these are all endowments which He did not enjoy on earth as a Man. [u]He is King now[/u], and we worship Him as King [u]now[/u]. [i]The people who have not made Him their King[/i] [u]before[/u] His return [i]will be destroyed[/i].

Please don't forget that I said right at the beginning of this post that I acknowledge He will return as King.

My point here, is to put a balance on that statement, because when it is emphasised in isolation, there can be a perception that He cannot be known as King [i][b]until[/i][/b] He returns.

Whereas the testimony of Christians down the centuries is that they had become citizens of another kingdom, for the King of which they were ready to die in His service, and still are.


Revelation 5 (NKJV)
9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands,
12 saying with a loud voice: "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!"
13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power [i]Be[/i] to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"

 2007/12/11 8:44









 Re:

Quote:
My point here, is to put a balance on that statement, because when it is emphasised in isolation, there can be a perception that He cannot be known as King until He returns.



Well, the King is coming.

However, when you pray, do you pray in the Kings name? Do you refer to Him as Lord or King.

When He comes as King, He will be "King of the Jews", just as He was originally!

How often in the Epistles does Paul or Peter or James refer to Him as King to us now?

Yes He is King, as He is redeemer, but all things in order. The Alpha Omega, Beginning and End, First and Last has Always been that indeed, an order of His events we need to rightly divide the word of Truth on.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did





 2007/12/11 9:09









 Re: I'm not joking ... who do you believe killed Jesus?


Hi Katy,

I am very interested in the lack of response by everyone to my leading post, in which I quote [u]Jesus said[/u] the Gentiles would kill Him.

I believe we have to try to get back to what the disciples were living through at the time, [i]not knowing what was going to happen next[/i].

I know they had had a hard time accepting that Jesus was going to die at all. They loved Him. None of them (and even Judas changed his mind - but too late) wanted to think of their beloved Teacher actually being [i]killed[/i]. And yet this is the term which Jesus uses in every record of it - 'kill'.

dorcas said:

Quote:
All I am looking for here, is a public acknowledgement that Jesus' prophecy about who would 'kill' Him, did come true.

You said

'I can appreciate that Dorcas, [u]and agree with you[/u].'


Can I ask, now, with what are you actually agreeing?


 2007/12/11 9:09





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