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 I'm not joking... who do you believe killed Jesus?



This is not a question about whether Jesus dismissed His spirit after He cried 'It is finished' or He died from exhaustion.

It is a look at His own prophecy, and whether we believe it.

For the sake of a future day when this will not be in my signature, I'll put Jesus' words here.

Mark 10
Then He took the twelve aside again and began to tell them the things that would happen to Him:
33 [color=0066CC]"Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and [b]they will condemn Him to death and deliver Him to the Gentiles;[/b]
34 [b]and they will mock Him, and scourge Him, and spit on Him, and kill Him[/b]. And the third day He will rise again." [/color]



Now, how do you read that?

Which other scriptures militate against Jesus' statement, and why (if at all) are they important for other doctrine? (Or aren't they?)


I have posted this because there are copious volumes of false doctrine filling the air, [u]and we know[/u] scripture interprets scripture.

 2007/12/8 16:20
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
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 Re: I'm not joking... who do you believe killed Jesus?

I think it was God who killed Jesus, ( i see how that could be misinterpreted ) but looking at these verses

We often say Jesus paid the price, but it was God who paid the price, and the price was his son

Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.


just some things i thought about


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CHRISTIAN

 2007/12/8 16:32Profile
sojourner7
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 Re: I'm not joking... who do you believe killed Jesus?

Jesus Himself said "For this reason the Father
loves me, because I lay down my life in order
to take it up again. No one takes it from me,
fut I lay it down of my own accord." Jesus
was willing to be offered as the supreme
sacrifice because God willed it so. ;-)


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Martin G. Smith

 2007/12/8 18:44Profile
PreachParsly
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 Re:

Are you asking if the Jews or the Gentiles were the ones who killed Jesus?


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Josh Parsley

 2007/12/8 18:51Profile
Christinyou
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 Re: I'm not joking... who do you believe killed Jesus?

His own condemned Him and the Roman Gentiles physically killed Him.

Who has the greater sin?

Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin

Who delivered Him? "He that delivered me." The singular here is put for the plural, including Judas, the high-priests, and the Sanhedrin.

John 19:21-22 Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews. Pilate answered, What I have written I have written.

Not all Israel wanted Him crucified, but, they did nothing to stop the crucifixion and torture.

Both Jew and Gentile are guilty, for the Gentiles has the power to pardon Jesus and would not, offered but condemned by the Heads of the Jews.

Personally, if He died for me, and He did, then I killed Him also, for my sins are no less than all that are in the world, and none could have saved Him but God the Father, Who chose the He be slain Him for us, "Who gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not parish but have everlasting life."

May God the Father receive all the Glory for any that are chosen and saved, and Jesus Christ who paid the only price that was sufficient unto salvation for those who believe that Jesus Christ is The Son of God. Amen.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/12/8 19:23Profile









 Re: I'm not joking... who do you believe killed Jesus?



PreachParsly asked

Quote:
Are you asking if the Jews or the Gentiles were the ones who killed Jesus?

I am.

 2007/12/8 20:08









 Re: I'm not joking... who do you believe killed Jesus?


Phillip, hello.

This question is important for what rests on the answer is huge. If the discussion doesn't go that way initially, I will definitely return to this point.

I have a comment for your post, though.

Quote:
Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin

Who delivered Him? "He that delivered me." The singular here is put for the plural, including Judas, the high-priests, and the Sanhedrin.

I've never heard this answer. I always (and do still) believe Jesus was referring to His Father, who had invited Him to covenant with Him for the salvation of the world.

We know from Gethsemane that He had agreed with His Father long before, to lay down His life.

JOhn 10
15 "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock one shepherd.
17 "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
18 "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."

 2007/12/8 20:14
PreachParsly
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 Re:

Here is a fairly plain verse.

1Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they [have] of the Jews:
1Th 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

Of course this doesn't warrant antisemitism or anything. I just thought I would throw that out there, I wouldn't want anyone to think I hate Jews. I think there has been some that have used this for a reason to persecute them.


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Josh Parsley

 2007/12/8 23:15Profile









 Re: I'm not joking... who do you believe killed Jesus?


PreachParsly said

Quote:
1Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they [have] of the Jews:
1Th 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:...

I think there has been some that have used this for a reason to persecute them.

You've made an interesting point, because Peter also makes it sound as if the Jews killed Jesus when he preached in Acts 2.

I know a man who has researched a great deal, to prove that the Jews who handed Him over, were not of the house of Judah. They were not His direct family.

I agree, also, that it has not helped the cause of the Church, to have Jews thus labelled - even though it is inexcusable to persecute Jews long after the event. Nevertheless, that in itself brings into focus their acceptance of 'His blood' being on them and on their children. Its sort of a living nightmare all round.

Recently, when I was considering how they were willing to say 'we have no king but Caesar', I saw that they had been willing to align themselves with the Gentile powers more than I had clocked before.

Nevertheless, on the day that He died, if you had been there, would you have said 'the Jews killed Jesus'? or is that a bold statement only the Holy Ghost gives the courage to say, after you've received that power from on high?

 2007/12/9 0:33
Christinyou
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Posts: 3707
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 Re:

Joh 19:11
Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

God the Father can have no sin, so the ones that delivered Jesus to Pilate are the ones that have the sin. Namely Judas in the Garden with a kiss and the Sanhedrin and Chief Priests.


This is the power Jesus is speaking of, that is the power to kill Jesus or let Him live. The power that Pilate was bragging about. Jesus set him right by telling him he had no power even to be king unless it had been given him from the Father, especially power to kill Jesus or let Him go. Jesus is speaking of The Father as having all power on earth and in heaven. Pilate was bragging about his power to the one that could leash all power in heaven and earth, and Jesus wanted Pilate to know that His power came from the Father. And because of the relationship The Father and the Son had, as you said, that is why Jesus gave all the power responsibility to the Father, keeping with His obeying the Father even unto death. Not that God had the greater sin, but that those that delivered Him to Pilate.

A. T. Robertson's Word Pictures
Joh 19:11
Thou wouldest have (ouk eiches). Imperfect active indicative without an, but apodosis of second-class condition as in Joh 15:22,24. Except it were given thee (ei mê ên dedomenon). Periphrastic past perfect indicative of didômi (a permanent possession). From above (anôthen). From God (cf. Joh 3:3), the same doctrine of government stated by Paul in Ro 13:1. Pilate did not get his "authority" from the Sanhedrin, but from Caesar. Jesus makes God the source of all real "authority." Hath greater sin (meizona hamartian echei). The same idiom in Joh 9:41. Caiaphas has his authority from God also and has used Pilate for his own base end.
In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/12/9 4:32Profile





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