| Poster | Thread | sermonindex
Moderator
Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 39795
Canada
Online! | | Re: | | Quote:
Goodness look at what happened to Ananias and Sapphira and now we have this nonsense?
Brother Mike, that is so right! I really believe that God has removed His presence from the Church, He manifest presence or He would be judging this nonesense for the validity of His name sake. As Tozer has stated the 'shekinah presence of God has departed from us, the pillar of fire is gone, we have departed from the God of Abraham to our own God of our imaginations and design' (thats paraphrased big time but you get the idea).
[b]Acts 5:1-11[/b] - Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. With his wife's full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles' feet. Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."
When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. Then the young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him. About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, "Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?" "Yes," she said, "that is the price." Peter said to her, "How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also." At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband
[b]Matthew 24:24-25[/b] - For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time.
[b]1 Timothy 6:3-5[/b] - If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
Or in the KJV version it say instead of 'godliness is a means to financial gain' it says 'GAIN is GODLINESS' what a false doctrine from the pits of hell. The teachers and pastors that teach these false doctrines of gain and God wanting to bless the body of christ in the last days with prosperity are 'conceited and' they
understand nothing' even though they have an appearance of wisdom.
_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
|
|  2004/5/29 16:11 | Profile | sermonindex
Moderator
Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 39795
Canada
Online! | | Re: | | Quote:
this was actually my first thought. I am surprised that this is still going on. it kind of reminds me of the whole PTL thing. i thought, soon enough the cover would be blown- i thought it would just be a passing thing.
If this was just a phase and many of us where sucked into it and fooled then imagine what else the devil can trick us into. I believe this doctrine and false miricale is still happening in many parts of the world, the reason I started this thread is a brother from australia reported to me that his wife recieved a silver tooth then a gold tooth. So this happened recently there and is surely prevelant across much of the world. I am not just willing to rub it off and say fine its passing, the damage done is irrevocable and permentant, only a truly God led movement of His spirit can repair the damge done, a showing of God actually working amongst men. Lord redeem your name from this movements and falsities, show yourself strong on those who are truly seeking the truth. Lead us into truth spirit of truth.
_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
|
| | 2004/5/29 16:19 | Profile | Gideons
Member
Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 474
Virginia
| | Re: | | This is such a troubling thread to me. So many people are not really seeking Jesus, they're seeking signs and wonders. I've never heard about gold teeth or silver teeth for that matter. It's all rather strange to me.
I don't see any Biblical basis for it and I'm not sure how this would glorify God. I agree with Chanin that we need to get back to the Gospel that we are all sinners doomed to hell, unless we're willing to turn our lives over to Christ. Surely the Lordship of Christ is not followed closely by the current in the Western world. Is Jesus Lord? If so, He must be Lord of all. Anything less than full surrender is not really surrender.
As far as judgment I'm reminded of 1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
The day of judgment is close at hand. Surely the Lord will vindicate His name.
_________________
Ed Pugh
|
| | 2004/5/29 18:47 | Profile | eagleswings
Member
Joined: 2003/12/30
Posts: 297
Connecticut, USA
| | Re: Pride and Deceit | | Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Goodness look at what happened to Ananias and Sapphira and now we have this nonsense?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brother Mike, that is so right! I really believe that God has removed His presence from the Church, He manifest presence or He would be judging this nonesense for the validity of His name sake. As Tozer has stated the 'shekinah presence of God has departed from us, the pillar of fire is gone, we have departed from the God of Abraham to our own God of our imaginations and design' (thats paraphrased big time but you get the idea).
Mike and Greg,
Art Katz has a penetrating observation to make about this situation:
"That men and women are not being struck dead instantly in our congregations is not a statement of God's tolerance of our deceits and lies. Judgment may not be as sudden, but it is no less certain. [b]"Bread obtained by falsehood is sweet to a man, but afterwards his mouth will be filled with gravel" (Pr.20:17 NAS)[/b] How much of the esteem, the joy, the prestige, and the peace presently being enjoyed in the Church is destined to turn to gravel in our mouths? It tastes sweet at the moment. There has been no Peter to challenge us. Truth has fallen into low regard, and there is little, if any, fear of the God who hates lies in any form. "White lies" and exaggerations and subtle misrepresentations are so frequent as to be considered normal, if not even desirable and required, in the conduct of Christian life. The perverse logic of deceit is made to seem true after all. If the ministers of God who transgress against truth are not being struck down like Ananias and Sapphira, God must have changed, or else truth has changed since the days of the Book of Acts. The reality is that God has not changed. Our lies are still killing us, only more slowly. We are starving, because the bread of deceit, no matter how sweet and plentiful, is not real food.
"Every lie is an act of astonishing presumption. What must take place within my heart for me to believe that God does not discern my deceit? I must exalt my own rationalizations above the Spirit of God. Every lie is an elevation of self above truth, above the one lied to. I cannot lie to someone and still regard him as greater or even equal. The very act of lying lifts me above the one deceived; it lowers him in my sight. By lying to the Holy Spirit, Ananias and Sapphira were exalting themselves above God.
"It is not surprising, then, that Peter said to Ananias, [b]Why has Satan filled your hearft to lie to the Holy Spirit" (Acts 5:3)[/b] The devil was a liar from the beginning, and he is the father of lies (Jn 8:44). He is also the father of pride. His fall was an act of self-exaltation, a supreme presumption to ascend up to the level of God Himself. His pride is itself a lie, an assertion of being more than He in whom truth resides. Pride and deceit have been intimately related from the beginning. They have a common nature, a common source. It was indeed nothing less than Satan that filled Ananias' heart, just as surely as it was no one less than God to whom Ananias lied.
"The Spirit of God was present in great power to heal the sick and to bring many to repentance in the very same hour that Peter was moved by the same Spirit to confront Ananias and Sapphira. That power is absent today, and it will not be restored to the Church until the Church is restored to the standard of truth that God established in the beginning."
from Chapter 8, "Humility: The Way of Truth"
in [u]The Spirit of Truth[/u]
http://benisrael.org/OnlineBooks/spirit_of_truth/contents_SoT.htm
_________________
Roger P.
|
| | 2004/5/29 19:00 | Profile | moreofHim
Member
Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632
| | Re: removed presence | | Quote:
Brother Mike, that is so right! I really believe that God has removed His presence from the Church, He manifest presence or He would be judging this nonesense for the validity of His name sake
I have spoken before about this "removal of God's presence" with Greg and a tiny bit on the forum. I don't know if anyone caught it or not.
I had had a dream that my First Love was leaving my house. He was downcast, seemed upset but also hurt. I thought maybe it was me. But this friend by Him said no, that is the way He has been lately. When He left, He left me with a stack of letters (which would represent my words from my journals or maybe the bible) I opened one up after He left and it said "Now you know what it is like to live with all of this" and i knew He meant all of this sin and lukewarmness. He couldn't take it any more. then it said "So now I must leave, and go to Ill. and then He mentioned one other state which I could not remember or read. I was so sad.
Now, two or three nights ago, I dreamed that this same First Love called me on the phone from where ever He was. At first he could not speak because He was in such anguish about being away. I said "I know", like i know "I feel the same anguish". He finally said "I just wanted to see how you were doing." It was the worst feeling.
If this really means He has removed His manifested presence- then I'd like to tell you that it breaks His heart. I know that individually, His presence dwells in us. I am not sure about His manifested presence as a whole. I am not familiar with this enough.
Any added comments would be welcome.
in Him, chanin
_________________
Chanin
|
| | 2004/5/29 21:29 | Profile | KeithLaMothe
Member
Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354
| | Re: | | Exodus 33
3 "Go up to a land flowing with milk and honey; for I will not go up in your midst, because you are an obstinate people, and I might destroy you on the way."
4 When the people heard this sad word, they went into mourning, and none of them put on his ornaments.
5 For the LORD had said to Moses, "Say to the sons of Israel, 'You are an obstinate people; should I go up in your midst for one moment, I would destroy you. Now therefore, put off your ornaments from you, that I may know what I shall do with you.'" |
| | 2004/5/29 22:16 | Profile | CJaKfOrEsT
Member
Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia
| | Re: | | If anyone was wondering, I was the one who sent the message to Greg. The lady was my wife. The message was sent to Greg to offer a "first person" view point, rather than the usual second hand comments that enter into these discussions./p>
I would like to rether to J. Edwin Orr, in his message "Why does God Exist" http://calvarychapel.com/ccbcgermany/orr/Melbourne.mp3 In this message, he mentions the fact that, he doesn't believe in Lepraucans, but doesn't feel the need to convince others of there non-existance. Although he was refering to atheists trying to convince us that there is no God, I believe that this is relevant to this issue.
I understand that a great deal of people who frequent this site, have a Berean style view of spiritual matters, and this is to be commended. However, can anyone present a "contextual scriptual criticism" to thisold dust-old tooth" thing? My interpretation is apart from the actual personalities involved, and onto the actual events.
It is commonly held that Jesus' miracle of turning water into wine was to demonstrate His divintity by changing this liquid on a molecular level. I personally believe that this is what is happening here. This isn't about "paying off churches". This is merely a byproduct not a prime product.
I'm hitting this hard, because it seems that the association with Toronto has caused alot of eye brows to raise. Ian Turton, the evangelist that was visiting our church when this happened to my wife, hails from Hobart in Australia. He was a pastor in Hobart, and this phenomena happened in his church. He began to travel, and this happened where he went. I have a respect for this man as a preacher who emphasises total repentance from sin. I only mention him to state my source as not accociated with Toronto.
I'm am not trying to get people to embrace this phenonema, just suggesting that we back off it. My wife, and I are well saved christians, who embrace the cross daily and are vigilant when it comes to sin. Do we sin...of course. Do we resist it in our hearts...wholeheartedly.
We need to bare in mind the evangelical and pentacostal christianinty has no set orthodox doctrinal view point on alot of issues. We have calvinism vs ariminianism, four views on the rapture, full emersion vs sprinkling...just to name a view. And that just among denominations that are considered orthodox by many who frequent this site.
I have heard the scriptural views on the "laughing revival", and I must say, there are logical scriptural reasoning to be wary of it...however, it would be well noted that even Art Katz in "Holiness Or Blessing" https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=3324 wisely stated that he would not outrightly deny that God could work though what is happening in Toronto and the like, only that he would rather err on the side of caution. And that from a man who is agenst it all.
By the way, the photo at the start of the post is not of my wife. I don't know why it was used
:smart: (Greg) :-P
_________________
Aaron Ireland
|
| | 2004/6/2 8:37 | Profile | moreofHim
Member
Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632
| | Re: apology | | Aaron,
I want to apologize for my comments. As I look back over my posts, I see that it was not in the right spirit. As I stated in my first reply, I don't know enough about it but when I read the original post - the Holy Spirit did not send me any "warning' signals. My first thoughts were that this is nothing compared to the hypocrisy in the church.
Though there are things I find disheartening in the charasmatic extremists, I know there are many people whose heart desires nothing more than to become closer to Christ. Their hearts are right.
What I cannot overemphasize is that Jesus rebuked hypocrisy more than anything else. Hypocrisy is found in all denominations including conservative denominations and churches. I would rather spend time with an on- fire holy roller than a lukewarm, hypocritical baptist anyday. When there is a passion for Jesus- there is much to fellowship about!
It is not about doctrine but about the heart. The Lord has shown this to me over and over. He has shown me a catholic, a holy roller, a lutheran- whom I already had preconceived ideas about- and shown me that their hearts wanted nothing more than to surrender to Him and do His will. He can deal with, change, etc... someone's doctrine- it is the heart that must be open to Him.
Again, I am sorry that I replied at all except to make the point that we should not find these things as offensive as hypocrisy and phariseism- because that is the way Jesus felt. He was constantly rebuking them for acting so pious when inside they were far from what they should have been and their hearts were hard.
in Him, chanin
_________________
Chanin
|
| | 2004/6/2 9:41 | Profile | Gideons
Member
Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 474
Virginia
| | Re: Brother Aaron | | As someone who came to Christ in a conservative Baptist Church and is now at least somewhat charismatic in doctrinal views, I apologize as well.
Quote:
Again, I am sorry that I replied at all except to make the point that we should not find these things as offensive as hypocrisy and phariseism- because that is the way Jesus felt.
How true Chanin. Since I've made some many errors in my Christian life, I'm so afraid of doctrinal error that sometimes I automatically reject things. Surely this fear discloses some unbelief in me that I need release from.
If we love Jesus with all our heart, He will never misguide us. Sometimes I do much better to keep my mouth shut (or fingers still in this case) but I apologize if I offended you or your wife in any way.
_________________
Ed Pugh
|
| | 2004/6/2 9:59 | Profile | sermonindex
Moderator
Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 39795
Canada
Online! | | Re: | | Quote:
If anyone was wondering, I was the one who sent the message to Greg. The lady was my wife. The message was sent to Greg to offer a "first person" view point, rather than the usual second hand comments that enter into these discussions.
Brother Aaron, I realize that the conversation was intially meant for discussion between us but there was just a jealousness stirred in my heart for the Lord and his people at SermonIndex that I had to show that even people coming to this site and listening to these life changing materials [b]can be[/b] decieved.
Quote:
he mentions the fact that, he doesn't believe in Lepraucans, but doesn't feel the need to convince others of there non-existance.
I would say that this phenomena exists and is dangerously acceptable to the christian that seeks selfishly over things not of the spirit in a spiritual context. I would not want to be branded with gold teeth, it would be a shame to me. Why did not Jesus have all gold teeth? why would he not give them to his followers? Why didn't gold dust fall from Jesus hair? I grieves my spirit to even write these things but it shows the utter deception that these phenoma carry. Its contray to the message of Christ and the apostles and really in light of scripture of new doctrines, deceptions, miriciales, signs and wonders, I am flabbergasted that any Chrisitan with the Holy Spirit wouldn't be alarmed with these happenings. It's a NEW thing people and has not been happening all throughout church history. We are being decieved!! And its not a joke, its not a funny passing quim ITS life and death, its a VERY serious matter and it any spirit filled christian makes light of it I would not want to be in his or her shoes. God is grieved over his church and has been giving her into sin and deception, we do not love the truth anymore, wake up church.
Quote:
I'm am not trying to get people to embrace this phenonema, just suggesting that we back off it. My wife, and I are well saved christians, who embrace the cross daily and are vigilant when it comes to sin. Do we sin...of course. Do we resist it in our hearts...wholeheartedly.
I am actually being felt of the Lord to raise up these issue of late and to be a spiritual watchguard against these things. We need to discuss these things and bring them into the light to see how clearly wrong they are. If I was an unbeliever and saw the sillyness that is happening by so-called christians I would write it off as a religion of selfishness and deception. Where are the prophets of God, who knows the truth who is willing to stand and speak the MIND of the LORD! With what little divine truth I have I cannot but say what I have been shown.
Quote:
I have heard the scriptural views on the "laughing revival", and I must say, there are logical scriptural reasoning to be wary of it...however, it would be well noted that even Art Katz in "Holiness Or Blessing" https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=3324 wisely stated that he would not outrightly deny that God could work though what is happening in Toronto and the like, only that he would rather err on the side of caution. And that from a man who is agenst it all.
Yes but in the same way he could say that of any situation in a christian circle no matter how bad it gets. God even works through Christians who are in Judgement under His hand. He uses all things for his glory. Sadly even Christians being decieved as Jesus said possibly even with tears: 'even the elect' could be decieved, the fact of the matter is God is glorified through this, for He is worthy to be sought out like a precious stone, the truth must be desired after with ALL that we are. Christianity is not served on a silver platter, its not a religion where you come to a place to recieve things from God selfishly and really for [b]your[/b] own glory.
[b]Jeremiah 8:4-12[/b] (niv) - "Say to them, 'This is what the LORD says: "'When men fall down, do they not get up? When a man turns away, does he not return? Why then have these people turned away? Why does Jerusalem always turn away? They cling to deceit; they refuse to return. I have listened attentively, but they do not say what is right. No one repents of his wickedness, saying, "What have I done?" Each pursues his own course like a horse charging into battle. Even the stork in the sky knows her appointed seasons, and the dove, the swift and the thrush observe the time of their migration. But my people do not know the requirements of the LORD. "'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD ," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have rejected the word of the LORD, what kind of wisdom do they have? Therefore I will give their wives to other men and their fields to new owners. From the least to the greatest, all are greedy for gain; prophets and priests alike, all practice deceit. They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. "Peace, peace," they say, when there is no peace. Are they ashamed of their loathsome conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush. So they will fall among the fallen; they will be brought down when they are punished, says the LORD.
Quote:
I don't know enough about it but when I read the original post - the Holy Spirit did not send me any "warning' signals. My first thoughts were that this is nothing compared to the hypocrisy in the church.
Sister Chanin, this is the FRUIT of a hypocritical church, a Church having of the Lord and having of the world, a double minded church. 'Though there are things I find disheartening in the charasmatic extremists, I know there are many people whose heart desires nothing more than to become closer to Christ. Their hearts are right.' you are wrong if their hearts are right [b]they would[/b] not be in a place of deception, God would not allow it if there hearts were in the place of 'being after God's own heart'!
Quote:
If we love Jesus with all our heart, He will never misguide us.
There is truth in that brother but at the same time we are to guard our minds, pauls call to [b]us[/b] being on guard to to equip ourselves against the attacks of the devil. We can't just love and think everything will work out in the end. We need to be viligant and on guard the devil does not rest 24/7 attacking us and wanting to bring the name of Christ to shame. I just can't let things pan out in the end, God has really put a fire in my bones to speak out and try and guide people into the truth at all costs. As Erlo Stegen said in his sermon 'God, as an enemy' he thanks God for people with a backbone, he said we have to many jellyfish! that seems abit crude but its very true I am praying that God will give me a backbone to stand up for the truth. I would say that most of the truly God possesed men I have heard and known speak out very little against these things but rather show the truth of God in their words and life that just being around then you would know the other things are counterfeit. But on the otherhand God raises up some men at different points and times to speak his mind and heart on the issue. As much as I know God I believe that His heart is grieved over all these deceptions in the church!
_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
|
| | 2004/6/2 12:15 | Profile |
|
