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JCGarc55
Member



Joined: 2004/3/1
Posts: 103


 Joseph Farah has Excellent Article up about Rick Warren's Efforts for Unity

you can read it here:[url=http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58942]Rick Warrens Inquisition Against "Troublemakers"[/url]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58942

Joseph Farah[url=http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58942]Click here[/url]

I can totally relate to being labeled a troublemaker. I was a member at 2 churches that were members of the Willow Creek Association.[url=www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58942]Try one more time..[/url]

 2007/11/30 16:10Profile









 Re: Joseph Farah has Excellent Article up about Rick Warren's Efforts for Unity

Warren and these other "evangelical pastors" are the pied piper's who are leading the great apostacy of this age... and this is just one more example.

Krispy

 2007/11/30 16:21
Smokey
Member



Joined: 2005/2/21
Posts: 417
Edmonton Alberta Cda.

 Re:


The increasing deception that is coming at us today is a clear sign that the day of the Lord is nigh at hand.

Blessings Greg ;-)


_________________
Greg

 2007/11/30 16:44Profile









 Re: Joseph Farah has Excellent Article up about Rick Warren's Efforts for Unity

Rick Warren says:

Quote:
"You've got to protect the unity of your church. If that means getting rid of troublemakers, do it."

You know, there is nothing wrong with this statement. We had to deal with troublemakers in our church, they had to either get with the program or leave.

I KNOW that Rick Warren is saying this to those that oppose his theology, but the statement itself is not wrong. He really believes what he is teaching is the right way. You can't fault him for saying that.

I find nothing wrong with any of his 6 warnings. What I don't like is the NIV being used. There is a difference in being in agreement AND having the mind of Christ.

Here are Rick Warrens 6 admonitons for Pastors.
Quote:
1. Avoid situations that cause arguments. The Bible says in 2 Timothy 2:23-24 (NIV): "Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful." Pastors should avoid causing arguments. As a leader you need to set the example for your whole church on this issue. When a minor argument comes along, refuse to get in the middle of it. You don’t need to have an opinion on everything. Some discussions don’t deserve your participation. Focus your conversation on topics that matter

Quote:
2. Teach troublemakers to repent. 2 Timothy 2:25-26 (NIV) says, "Those who oppose him [the pastor] he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will." Most pastors don’t like confrontations. But we can’t run from them. As the pastor, you must gently instruct those creating dissention and opposing the teaching in the church.

Quote:
3. Warn those causing trouble that their negative words hurt others. 2 Timothy 2:14 (NIV) says, "Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words. It is of no value and only ruins those who listen." People need to know that their words have consequences.

Quote:
4. Make a plea for harmony and unity. Paul did this in Philippians 4:2 (NIV). He said, "I plead with Euodia and I plead with Syntyche to agree with each other in the Lord." There were two very strong willed women in the church named Euodias and Syntyche who were causing so much friction in the church that Paul’s plea for them to stay united is in the Bible. Fighting in a church doesn’t just affect the combatants; it influences the whole church as people start taking sides. Just like Paul did, at times, you’ll need to make a plea for unity directly to those causing problems.

Quote:
5. Rebuke with authority if necessary. Paul says in Titus 2:15-3:1, "These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you. Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good." You may need to confront the contentious person as well.

Quote:
6. Remove them from the church if they ignore two warnings. Titus 3:10-11 says, "Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned." No pastor wants to do this, but at last resort you may need to remove the contentious person from the church. You’ve got to protect the unity of your church. If that means getting rid of troublemakers, do it

If these 6 encouraging words came from someone else we probably wouldn't have a problem receiving it. But because it came from the likes of Rick Warren were hesitant. And who wouldn't!

 2007/11/30 18:59









 Re:

If I were a Pastor, but I'm not, I could not be at peace or feel I was working toward the unity of the church or unity in God's Word as Pastor if at anytime I permitted anyone who supported abortion and homosexual rights speak to the flock about anything, clear and simple. We are in the world, but not of the world. Now if someone, through the regeneration of the Holy Spirit had left their former ways and became a new creation and had a new way of thinking on abortion and homosexuality then they would have a testimony of the power of God in their life and bring HIM glory, their past way of thinking would not matter, and God's power would be manifested in their life and testimony. Jesus came to seek and to save that which is lost. He didn't call the lost to speak to the church, but the church to speak to them. If a person supports these issues it is a good implication and a very good sign to me they could very well be lost. Am I judging? Not unless I give the punishment. I just used a preponderance of God's Word.

Rom 1:26-2:1
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts.[b] Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.[/b]

28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.




 2007/11/30 22:12
JCGarc55
Member



Joined: 2004/3/1
Posts: 103


 Re:

Quote:
If these 6 encouraging words came from someone else we probably wouldn't have a problem receiving it. But because it came from the likes of Rick Warren were hesitant. And who wouldn't!



To be more specific, it's Warren's application of the text that most of us are against. His unity is NOT based on Truth. Look at the Conferences that Warren participates in and who's there with him. He sits side by side with wolves. Is that the mark of a shepherd?

 2007/12/1 4:18Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: Swimming in muddy water

Quote:
You know, there is nothing wrong with this statement. We had to deal with troublemakers in our church, they had to either get with the program or leave.


Indeed no one wants “trouble makers” and I admit, I was once one on the PDC forum where I happened to question some of RW’s comments in his book PDL. (That was potentially divisive, they feared) Once I was viewed as a “suspect” the guards surrounded me” and I realized it was best to head for “the door” . You can’t contend for the faith together once you are slotted for the camp outside the “city”. And in all fairness, I was not part of the PDC movement, and that was a little too obvious.

Still the human bent to shun “outsiders” is universal. Consider this comment:
Quote:
What I don't like is the NIV being used. There is a difference in being in agreement AND having the mind of Christ.


This thinking reflects bias that fosters disunity in the Body. Brother, I suspect that you don’t use the NIV. That is why you don’t think it reflects “the mind of Christ”. I use it and am being blessed beyond measure by it (or rather the Spirit speaking through it). But your views create a barrier between you and me.

Do be careful that you do not make evaluations according to YOUR slant unsubstantiated by adequate research. And do be careful that you do not pigeonhole others, including RW, according to YOUR biased criteria. For in doing so, your sin could be greater than the one you are condemning.

Quote:
If these 6 encouraging words came from someone else we probably wouldn't have a problem receiving it. But because it came from the likes of Rick Warren were hesitant. And who wouldn't!



A good point here. Once we slot someone as not in OUR camp, we suspect everything they say and do. That is not a compliment to our ability to exercise discernment. It has been the source of unspeakable prejudice in Christendom and keeps it fractured in thousands of camps. I cannot point fingers though, because I am cut from this same cloth. It is not surprising that God has used all kinds of people “outside MY camp” to speak to me, to heal me, and to shake me out of my own slants. Can you believe that I was healed through the prayers of “Vineyard” followers!! Before we toss out RW entirely, we should consider that just maybe God has used him, as flawed as he is, to break some out of their old rigid mould of self-reliant intellectualism.

Our religious institutions typically reflect the cultural values, but the biggest problem is that the fish can’t see the water they are swimming in. Only when you are on the outside, looking in, can you see that the water may be muddy. In other words, we can always see what’s wrong with somebody else (their muddy water), but we can’t see that we may be swimming in muddy water too. Pride has a way of blinding us and making us think we have 20/20 vision.

Diane



_________________
Diane

 2007/12/1 8:16Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi everyone.


Diane,

"Before we toss out RW entirely, we should consider that just maybe God has used him, as flawed as he is, to break some out of their old rigid mould of self-reliant intellectualism."


But what does that mean, that we should consider that God may have used him?


If God has been pleased to use anyone, does it mean for instance: that they are His or that they have His approval? or that the means that they use are godly? or that they teach the word of God in truth?



In 2Corinthians 10:18 for instance, Paul writes

"For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth."


And Peter says of those who were preaching the word, that they [i]...preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven[/i].


And John writes


"For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [i]unto him[/i]."



- John chapter 3 verse 34(KJV)



Isn't then what concerns us, whether or not a man be approved of God, that he be sent of God, that he have an holy unction to preach and to teach?


And so too does Paul ask [i]how shall they preach, except they be sent?[/i]




Take care for now,


Chris





_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/12/1 9:13Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
If God has been pleased to use anyone, does it mean for instance: that they are His or that they have His approval? or that the means that they use are godly? or that they teach the word of God in truth?


Hi, Chris, Thanks for seeking clarity on my point. I sure didn’t aim to convey the possibility that because God may use a person or organization he is content with the overall spiritual condition (of either donor or recipient!). Also, having benefited from a particular person or organization does not presuppose any obligation of loyalty. Yet, people are quick to sell their heart and soul to an organization without the ability to adequately discern its fallibility. (It’s like infatuation.)


My area of concern is regarding the tendency to slot people into categories according to one’s own hypocritical criteria - judging superficially without the ability to discern correctly!

I admit, while RW uses scripture to support his agenda, my own experience would cause me to be suspicious of the criteria by which he judges the "trouble maker". It could be self-protective.


I used the example of pride to illustrate one of the possible mutual sins between judger and judgee. We could include other symptoms that betray trust in self - exposed through self-defensive measures regarding my opinion, views, version, etc. (How does that differ from the PDC motive?)

Leonard Sweet refers to “the godlet phenomenon”:

The godlet phenomenon of postmodern culture: the misguided notion that we are gods, or we can be as gods.

Postmodern culture is a sucker for the serpent’s lie: "You will be like God"
(Gen. 3:5).


It is you who are running the show.
You are the one calling the shots.
You are the most important person in the world.

(from “SoulTsunami”)

Now this godlet phenomena is sure to result in faulty judging. You sure don’t have to be a PDC fan to have this affliction! AND you can also be quite against them, in fact!



Diane









_________________
Diane

 2007/12/1 10:41Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Diane, thank you for the response.



"I sure didn’t aim to convey the possibility that because God may use a person or organization he is content with the overall spiritual condition (of either donor or recipient!)."



Even further though, isn't the issue for us whether or not they are sent of God? And that their message is of Him?





I like something that I read attributed to Spurgeon, that is, the way you show that a stick is crooked is to lay a straight one next to it.





The Lord Jesus said




[b][color=660000] Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. [/color][/b]


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/12/1 11:30Profile





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