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 Re:


Quote:
Interesting thought, sister, although not precisely found in scripture.



Ephesians 5

23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

 2007/12/8 10:30









 Re: Covenant


Hi Katy,

Of course I am aware of what Paul said in Ephesians 5 about the Church and marriage, and of the picture of the Church being taken out of Christ's side, as Eve was from Adam. It was more the idea that was conveyed in your choice of language, as if Adam had had a choice after he had eaten the apple, to lay down his life willingly, in the way Christ did for us.

Yes he did die as the head of Eve taking responsibility for her, but really, he died when he took the fruit. The [i]choice[/i] he made, was to sin, not to be a saviour. If he could have saved humanity by dying, perhaps God could have brought another man to Eve to be a husband to her. In a sense He does, when He comes to the Church.

It has been suggested that if Adam had had the courage to refuse the fruit, God could have brought him a second Eve. But we'll never know.


To my question in the preceding post, I wanted to add

Luke 20
37 "But even Moses showed in the [i]burning[/i] bush [i]passage[/i] that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord 'the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.'
38 "For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him."


It appears the OT saints were not dead, doesn't it?

 2007/12/8 10:41









 Re:

Dorcas, You are making more out of this then necessary. Adam is a Type of Christ, as Romans 5 states, a figure of Him who is to come...Jesus Christ.

Moses is a Type of Christ, so is Joshua, and Joseph......they are not the actual.

It is a story of Love. Also tht Eve was not formed out of the earth, but out of Adam's side.

What God has joined together let no man put asunder......Once Saved Always Saved is you are truly one with Christ.

Of coarse Adam didn't die for Eve's sin, but he did die with her rather then be without her.....Oh what Love!

But here is a link answering your other question.
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1115147624.html

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

 2007/12/8 10:50









 Re:

Dorcas, here is a link about Adam being a Type of Christ. I didn't make this up. Even Scofield has this in his foot notes.

http://www.gospelweb.net/OldTimersWorks/Adam.htm

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

 2007/12/8 11:04
jayyou
Member



Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


 Re:

Dear sister Katy-did

in one of your posts you said a couple of things that are not really related to the new covenant issue but I thought it was interesting and I have a couple of question to you if I may.

Quote:"""AKA Abraham's Bosom. When Jesus died on the cross, and told the man next to Him, TODAY you will be with me in Paradise, tha was Abraham's Bosom. Those OT Saints are no longer in Abraham's Bosom, but are now In Christ, in Heaven. They have already died, so thy await the 1st resurrection just as we do."""""


My question to you is,

what about the saints that died before Abraham?
Where did they go? and what scripture do you use to back this up?


I know that in luke 16:23 Jesus talks about it but to my understanding that has nothing to do with the state of the dead, for some of what Jesus said is not actually real, it was just for illustration purpose,
For instance, I don't believe that there is actually communication between whoever is in Hades with those who are in paradise(abraham bosom) as you call it.

I had never look at this text in regard of the state of the dead, and always looked at it as in what Jesus was trying to tell us that scripture from begining to end points to Him our saviour and if moses writings could not turn our ways to find Jesus and love the lord with all our hearts then not even the dead coming back to life could do that for us.

The other thing, is this:

According to your theory someone dies and goes to heaven

But the book of Acts tell us something quite different.

Acts 2:29 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.


Acts 2:34-35 "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool." '


Now luke is telling us that not only He is dead and buried but on verse 34 Luke says that He did not ascend to heaven.

Now something is not right here, for God said:

Acts 13:22 'I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.'

Now if DAvid, is dead buried and His tomb is still with us, and also he did not ascend to Heaven, what hope are there for us?


the other text is about steven,

Acts 7:60 "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

When Jesus brought the little girl back to life He told them she was sleeping.

1 Corinthians 15:17-18 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.


=================================================

the second part of my question is,

Quote:"""" What God has joined together let no man put asunder......Once Saved Always Saved is you are truly one with Christ. """"


The point I am trying to make here is this.

Matthew 18:23-35 "Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 "And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 "But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 "The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, 'Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.' 27 "Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt. 28 "But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, 'Pay me what you owe!' 29 "So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.' 30 "And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 "So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 "Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 'Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?' 34 "And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses."



God will forgive our sins but if we do not do the same the debt is brought back to us.

The other text is the parable of the sower,

You know that parable so I will not post here, but my question is:

some fell on good soil, and they produce fruit.

Matthew 13:5-6 "Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. 6 "But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away.

it tells me that some receive the word but we know what happend, were these ever saved at any point?

Matthew 13:7 "And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them.

were these ever saved?



Would love to see your comments about this.

 2007/12/8 13:07Profile









 Re: Covenant


Hi Katy,

Quote:
about Adam being a Type of Christ. I didn't make this up.

It's ok. I know you didn't.


On the other point about captivity being led captive, I decided to check Isaiah's prophecy as it's recorded by Luke in chapter 4:

18 "The Spirit of the LORD [i]is[/i] upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to captives
And recovery of sight to blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD."
20 Then He closed the book, and gave [i]it[/i] back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him.
21 And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."


In the same way as Jesus healed people and forgave their sin, even though He had not yet received the stripes, overcome the devil or died for sin, I believe He did release people from captivity, by proclamation. I can more easily believe He went to proclaim liberty to those who had died in bondage (perhaps as prisoners, even), than that the OT saints who had died were 'captive' in Paradise.

The concept of 'captivity' as an abstract noun is difficult to put into other words, but I don't think it has to do with OT saints who had died. Rather, it had something to do with the powers of darkness, which once Jesus had conquered the devil, He was free to wrap up once and for all.

 2007/12/8 16:03









 Re:

Quote:
what about the saints that died before Abraham? Where did they go? and what scripture do you use to back this up?



Jayyou,

In order to understand Covenant, you must first understand the "Everlasting Covenant" which is not the New Covenant, but the New Covenant comes under the Everlasting Covenant.

Please read Hebrews 13: 20&21. Do you see there what Covenant God is talking and referring to? It doesn't say the New Covenant, but the Everlasting Covenant.

This Covenant...the EVERLASTING Covenant was first revealed in Genesis 3:15 and will not come to completeness until the end of time. There are several Covenants with in the Everlasting Covenant that are Everlasting Promises having nothing to do with the New Covenant doing away with them. The New Covenant of Grace is Better than the Old Covenant of LAW, but has nothing to Do with the Covenant made to David, that a KING will come and occupy the throne of David. This King, Jesus Christ will come back a second time, quite differently then the lamb who died upon the cross, rode humbly through town on a donkey etc. He won't be riding through on a donkey, but on a White Horse...refer to Revelation please.

Your comment in Acts about David is taken out of Context and has nothing to do with anything except to say, it won't be David himself who occupies the Throne, but Christ Himself.

Paul says, to be absent from the Body is to be present with the Lord. When we die we go right to heaven, and we are present with the Lord. Our spirit and soul leave our decayed flesh that turns back to ashes to ashes and dust to dust....

OT Saints went to a place called Paradise, Also given the name Abraham's Bosom.

The Everlasting Covenant is revealed piece by piece down through History, more fully explained to Abraham, where Abraham is the father of us all ( Christians that is) A place can have two names, but that place and our salvation has always been through the Everlasting Covenant first and foremost, through Abraham's seed, not seeds, but of one, Jesus Christ, first prophesied in Genesis 3:15, and more fully opened up through time.

The final fulfillment is the complete overthrow of Satan when KING Jesus makes His enemies his footstool, ( Please see 1st Corinthians 15) and that Jesus Christ Must Reign ( as King) before this comes to fruition.
Love in Christ
Katy-Did

 2007/12/9 10:28
jayyou
Member



Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


 Re:

Dear katy-did

I will try again asking you the same questions maybe this time you will answer them.

Please forget for now the word covenant.

These are questions that are not related to covenants

what about the saints that died before Abraham?
Where did they go? and what scripture do you use to back this up?

Please, in your first atempt to answer these questions you just said that Abraham bosom is where the dead used to go, but where is the scripture that backs up your claim.

In scripture there is only one place that mentions Abraham's bosom, now what is your logic in regard of this?



I know that in luke 16:23 Jesus talks about it but to my understanding that has nothing to do with the state of the dead, for some of what Jesus said is not actually real, it was just for illustration purpose,
For instance, I don't believe that there is actually communication between whoever is in Hades with those who are in paradise(abraham bosom) as you call it.

I had never look at this text in regard of the state of the dead, and always looked at it as in what Jesus was trying to tell us that scripture from begining to end points to Him our saviour and if moses writings could not turn our ways to find Jesus and love the lord with all our hearts then not even the dead coming back to life could do that for us.

The other thing, is this:

According to your theory someone dies and goes to heaven

But the book of Acts tell us something quite different.

Acts 2:29 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.


Acts 2:34-35 "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool." '


Now luke is telling us that not only He is dead and buried but on verse 34 Luke says that He did not ascend to heaven.

Now something is not right here, for God said:

Acts 13:22 'I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.'

Now if DAvid, is dead buried and His tomb is still with us, and also he did not ascend to Heaven, what hope are there for us?


the other text is about steven,

Acts 7:60 "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

When Jesus brought the little girl back to life He told them she was sleeping.

1 Corinthians 15:17-18 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.


=================================================

the second part of my question is,

Quote:"""" What God has joined together let no man put asunder......Once Saved Always Saved is you are truly one with Christ. """"


The point I am trying to make here is this.

Matthew 18:23-35 "Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 "And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 "But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 "The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, 'Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.' 27 "Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt. 28 "But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, 'Pay me what you owe!' 29 "So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.' 30 "And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 "So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 "Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 'Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?' 34 "And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses."



God will forgive our sins but if we do not do the same the debt is brought back to us.

The other text is the parable of the sower,

You know that parable so I will not post here, but my question is:

some fell on good soil, and they produce fruit.

Matthew 13:5-6 "Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. 6 "But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away.

it tells me that some receive the word but we know what happend, were these ever saved at any point?

Matthew 13:7 "And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them.

were these ever saved?



Would love to see your comments about this.

 2007/12/12 16:13Profile
jayyou
Member



Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


 Re:

Hi brother benwilliams,

I have written a message to you and did not get a reply so I decided to repeat the message so it doesn't get lost among all the other.

Here it goes.


Thank you Brother for your reply.

I have to say that I rely enjoy exchanging messages with you, I think it is great that we can expose our doctrines differences in love and respect.

If you allow me to comment I have a few things to say about your last message.

Quote:""""Now in regards to the duty of the covenant, I am slightly unsure what you believe."""

In the new covenant we have the promise that God will put His laws in our hearts. That is my duty I have to keep His laws in my heart and in my mind. One can argue laws forever but I will try to explain to you what I believe these laws are.


I will probably repeat some of the things I posted before so please bear with me.
-------------------------------------------------

I believe that the New Covenant has the same structure as the Old Covenant.
The Promise
The Duty
The Sign

I believe that in my past posts we have established what these are.

Now You said:"""""If you believe that there are commandments that we must keep, then you must examine all of what Jesus taught, and not just one or two scriptures, there is another place that deals with the issue of commandments."""""


You are 100% right, We have to read the Scriptures as a whole, One text on its own does not nulify others texts but it has to complement it.

You have given me a text in Matthew 22:36-40.
Where Jesus was asked about the greatest commandments in the law.

the second greatest commandments was to love your neighbor. but look what paul says in regard of how I should love my neighbor.

Romans 13:9-10 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

wow, paul just name half of the Ten Commandments.



Matthew 22:37-38 Jesus said to him, " 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 "This is the first and great commandment.


Now I ask you, Was this Jesus words or someone else's like Moses?

Here it is, but note that this Statement was made by moses just after rereading the Ten Commandments to Israel.

Deuteronomy 6:4-5 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one! 5 "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

How do I do this?

I think the answer is here.

Deuteronomy 6:2-3 "that you may fear the LORD your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, you and your son and your grandson, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged. 3 "Therefore hear, O Israel, and be careful to observe it, that it may be well with you, and that you may multiply greatly as the LORD God of your fathers has promised you -- 'a land flowing with milk and honey.'

According to this, they would receive the promise of the covenant.

Now we have the same account in Mark 12:13

But a very interesting thing happened in Luke

I young man come to Jesus and ask Him about Eternal life.



Luke 10:25-26 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

Then Jesus replied with a question?

26 He said to him, "What is written in the law?

Here we have Jesus refering to the Law and He asks the Lawyer.

What is your reading of it?"

and The lawyer gives the exact same answer that Jesus said in the account of mattew and mark.

Luke 10:27-28 So he answered and said, " 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and 'your neighbor as yourself.' " 28 And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live."

So To me, the commandments that Jesus refered in these texts are the very Ten Commandments.

For in another place it was asked Jesus the very same thing, and Then Jesus went on and named six out of the Ten commandment.

Luke 18:18-22 Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 19 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 20 "You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not bear false witness,' 'Honor your father and your mother.' " 21 And he said, "All these things I have kept from my youth." 22 So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."


To my understanding this is the perfect formula for salvation.

To enter eternal life, I must:

Keep His commandments,
Don't have any love for the things of this World.
and Give my life to Him completely, by following Him.

Some people Read this passage and the first thing that they concentrate is the intentions of the Ruler. But I invite you to look at Jesus intentions. Whatever the intentions of the ruler was to me is of no relevance, but what Jesus says is. When Jesus replied He had no other intention than to lead the ruler into eternal life by obbeying the commandments and asking Him to follow Him.

=================================================
Quote:
""""In John, who is known to be the closest to Jesus, who outlived all the other apostles, we find this exact teaching right here, where Jesus says something very interesting."""""


Jesus Did not give a new commandment, In fact all that He did was to magnify the the ones already there.

I will give you an example.

This is how I see it.

The four first commandments of the Ten Commandments, talks about How we should Love God with all our heart, Remember, The greatest commandment?

the other six Commandments are guidances of How we should Love our neighbour.

Now what Jesus did was, He wanted us to look at some of these laws with a magnifying glass.

For instance.

Ten Commandments
Do not commit Adultery.

But Jesus said:
Matthew 5:27-28 " You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Again,
Matthew 5:43-44 " You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.

You see, Jesus was showing us that as his followers we have not only to love our neigbour which was the second greatest commandment but He wants us to go even further, and love our enemies as well.

And I tell you to love your enemies, to pray for those who persecute you and bless those who curse you, all of these can only be achieved when Christs love abides in you. And I am not ashamed to admit I struggle with these, but everyday with the help of the scriptures and the holy Spirit, I am moving forward and learning to love those who sometimes don't have the best intentions towards me.

What I want you to see is I believe that God established His Holy Laws and they are eternal, Jesus did not come to change or nullify but He came to magnify His Father laws.

=================================================

Quote: """you will find that even under the first covenant, man could not fulfill the duty of the covenant by being perfect according to the law. A man had to have faith to be counted as righteous, that is why Paul uses the example of Abraham as the standard by which salvation is to be judged. Let me quote a little Paul""""


You are 100% correct.

Scripture is very clear in this subject.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

But One cannot Deny that in every act of faith was followed by an act of obedience.


Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Now let me show you this.

Here Paul describes what faith is.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.


a lot of people read my messages and they come back to me asking why do you put your salvation in the law rather than by faith in Jesus?

I answer them that this could not be further any further from the truth.

It is because I have faiht in Him, because I trust in Him that I want to follow His laws, His commandments.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

=================================================

You then quoted a text from romans 4.

I particularly like verse two,

Romans was written because there were jews preaching to the new coverts that unless they were cirucumcised in the flesh they could not be saved.

When Paul refers to Justified by works it has nothing to do with the God's Law(Ten Commandments) He is talking about Circumcision, for they believed that they were justified by it, you could not belong to God unless you were circumcised.

The book of Romans is treating the problem of circumcision, nothing more.

Here is the proof.

One cannot live without the law.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law,

For those who live without the any law will perish.

Romans 2:12 and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law.

Again, if you have the law but break it then you will be judged and you will perish as well.

but here paul says:

Romans 2:13 for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

but hang on, what does paul says about justification by the deeds of the law?

Galatians 2:16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Is Paul contradicting Himself?

In one place he says that the doers of the Law will be justified but in another He says that no one will be justified by the the law.

Not At all, the law that paul is talking about in Romans 2 is the law that tells us what sin is.

Romans 2:14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves.

Now the law the pauls is talking about in Galatians 2:16 is a different law.

to know that all we have to do is to go back to the beginning of the chapter. What is Paul talking about?

Galatians 2:1-4 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage).

What Paul was saying is that no one will be justified by being circumcised, remember that the sign of the covenant with Abraham was circumcision?

So for the Jew they thought that they were right with God because they were circumcised, and we know what Paul tell us.


Romans 2:25-29 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

=================================================

quote:"""What did Abraham do that made him righteous before God? Remember that the law had not yet come, the only law that there was, was what Romans 1 talks about how God had revealed what was right by way of the conscience. It says that Abraham "believed" God, and that made him righteous before God."""



Abraham believed but also He obeyed and that was counted as righteousness.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.


Abraham again was mentioned when Paul is talking about circumcision.

Romans 4:9-12 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

Again nothing to do with obedience to the law(Ten Commandments) but the law of circumcision.

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 2007/12/12 16:39Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Please, in your first attempt to answer these questions you just said that Abraham bosom is where the dead used to go, but where is the scripture that backs up your claim



Well, lets start with Luke, a place called Hades or Paradise or Abraham's Bosom . If you see in Luke it was a place where there was a great gulf that divided...one side for those Saints most likely Abel, on down. If we believe exactly as that scripture teaches, they were able to at least yell across to one another, as someone way saying " It's as Hot as Hades in here" ...go warn my brothers...something like that.

One side of this was also given a name Paradise as Jesus said Today you will be with me in Paradise. This was a place where OT Saints awaited the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Now we see in 1st Peter 3: 18-22 , and there are many interpretations of this, that Jesus preached to the souls in prison who were long before and during the time of Noah. I don't believe they were given a second chance at all, but I do believe if Luke is correct, then when Jesus was on the Paradise side those three days, being able to see across, He probably said, You are without excuse...look here who I have with me, and now taking home with me. They too lived in your time and knew the Glory of God in the beginning of time on earth. This is quite clear they did as Romans 1&2 state this for a fact. We don't know what they had at that time, but they turned the Glory of God to glorifying the creature (paganism) and corrupted themselves searing their own conscience so badly, God had to destroy the earth with a flood. He preached their judgment that awaits, as no one after death is given a second chance....also clear in Luke as well.

Hebrews 12 state in Heaven now are the spirits of *Just* men made perfect. Hebrews is talking to the early Church. Talking to Jews about their history from OT on.


Quote:
1 Corinthians 15:17-18 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.



Absolutely, if Christ didn't rise from the dead, not only would we not be In Christ to begin with and be resurrected at the first resurrection...that hasn't happened yet. Not even these who were brought to heaven after Jesus Rose from the dead.

Job said, I know that my redeemer liveth, and He will raise me up and I shall see Him in the flesh. Even Job believed in the resurrection. The whole Chapter of 1st Corinthians 15 is about the resurrection to Live and how it will come about and who will receive this 1st resurrected live.



Quote:
God will forgive our sins but if we do not do the same the debt is brought back to us.



I believe this to be Kingdom teaching...the Millennial Kingdom Reign for 1000 years. It will be law, as Jesus will rule the nations with a rod of Iron. However we are in this age of Grace forgiven of our sin...please read Colossians 2.

You know, we can learn from all scripture and can learn something of value here as well.

Jesus forgave us our sin. Yet if we are so selfish and self centered as to not forgive someone who had offended us then His Spirit in us is void, because that is what being Christ like is about...forgiving others. This is where the Lost see Jesus the most in us.

But we shouldn't be so quick to judge another. If either of my children were the victims of rape or murder or molestation it would take some time and God's work in my heart to really forgive...not just say the words or go through the motions. Many people are hurting even Christians over such things, and some become even bitter. This is painful stuff.

I once heard a story of 8 nuns who were raped on the mission field by soldiers. It took many years to get over it. One lady said, 8 years for her, but God used that to use her to minister to other women being raped in this war torn area.

You know, part of the fellowship of His sufferings are unforgivable offenses towards us, and God uses these to conform us to His image.

To say that f you don't forgive God will renege on His forgiveness leaves Him no room to work in our lives.

Pray for those who need healing in any area of unforgivness.

My husband was an atheist, and when I became a Christian left me and his children. He wanted me to make a choice between him and God. He hated I took the children to Church and Sunday school. Then just to get my goat, he would bring in x rated movies and ask the kids to sit and watch with him. Then he brought his girlfriend right into our home as a guest, just to shock the heck out of me.

Who will it be, he said? The final stray was on his own time on his Saturday visits, brainwash our children that there was no God, all the stories in the Bible are just stories, and that I was Crazy to believe in God...there was no God.

They believed him...the greatest blow of all.

Yet, many years working through this, mad as a hornet, daughter out of control, would pit her against me, and joke about her drinking, and even contribute. When she got her DUI, he thought it was funny, and made up a song on his guitar as a big joke about it.

I really wrestles with the forgive and forget.

What I did rather was give it all to the Lord, because it was bigger then I was. I said I can't forgive, but you can. So I prayed that God would work through me His will and His words and His Spirit and His forgiveness through me.

Don't judge others affairs...you never know how God is working in not only their life but others as well.

We work out our salvation on the battlefield of LIFE.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did
;-)

 2007/12/12 17:27





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