SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Why does a Christian still commit sins?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 Next Page )
PosterThread
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi Robert

Quote:
Some would argue that the 'old man' is crucified with Christ, but the 'old nature' (GK. sarx 'flesh') still remains. The 'old man' is your 'old self' who existed when you were dead in trespasses in sins. That person is crucified with Christ. Does the sin nature remain though? I would argue- yes. Some would argue no. I would argue 'yes' based upon many passages in the epistles that warn us not to sow to the 'flesh'- lest we reap corruption.


This is the area where we shall just have to agree to disagree. The bible has no concept of the 'old nature'; is a purely theological explanation. Nor is there a biblical concept of 'self' or the 'old self'; this is a purely psychological explanation. We are dead or alive, in the light or in the darkness, of God or not of God, in Adam or in Christ. None of these opposites can co-exist.

Notice the combination of singular and plural in the verse 'our old man was co-crucified with Christ'. If we were speaking of an individual's condition we might have expected 'our old men were' or 'the old man was' but we get this unique picture of one old man who is shared by all of us. This is the 'ancient man' (literally). It is Adam and what he became as a result of his disobedience. It is the whole race of which I am part by first birth. It is the race under the wrong head; it is a mystical body that stands in contrast to the 'new man' which is a new race, under a new head. It is utterly impossible, as far as I can see, for a person to by under two heads at the same time or for the states 'in Adam' and 'in Christ' to coexist.

The last time we discussed this issue you implicitly questioned whether I should be on this forum, asking whether other site users knew what I was preaching. So, please don't presume that you know what I am preaching until you hear me say it. The real question is how does a person come to be 'in Christ'? I do not believe it is by justification. Abraham was justified but was not in Christ while on earth. (although he may be now). The real difficulty here is that almost every word of an explanation would need careful definition. Regeneration, sancitification, in Christ, Spirit-baptism, all these words trigger historical-theological responses in those who hear them. The consequence is that such discussions generate more heat than light.

As a simple answer to the original question 'why do Christians sin?'. I would give the answer: "because they choose to".


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/5/29 5:07Profile
inwardman
Member



Joined: 2004/5/20
Posts: 7


 Re:

There are two completely different personalities working in every true believer. This becomes evident (to the believer) when God's light, which is equated with truth, goes into a man's heart, and exposes the darkness which is man's inherited nature, or the natural man. The man of the senses. 1 Cor 2:14
The outer man, or man of senses does not receive the things of the Spirit, because we cannot even see light (truth), until we are in it.
There is the inner man, and the outer man. The inner man, which is birthed from God cannot sin. Because it's His righteousness, or His light, and Christ (in us) who cannot sin.
But the outer man cannot cease from sin, without the light. So, the only way the outer man can die, is by the gospel which is the ressurection.
This is a daily death, or daily cross Luke 9:23 and I Cor 15:31, to the outer man, not a one-time walk down an isle to "accept Christ" triggered by soft music, momentary conviction and the soft words of some pastor giving an altar call. That is not it.
Paul himself said I AM carnal. Romans 7:3-25 is the reality of every true believer. Anyone who says that they can live above sin, just commmited sin by lying. And agreeing to disagree is diorusso {dee-or-oos'-so},and diamerizo {dee-am-er-id'-zo} and dianomos.
There is supposed to be no division of light within the body of Christ.
The only way to sin (less) is to feed the inner man, and starve the outer man. But, we will always have some trouble in this flesh, anyone who says differently is just kidding themselves.



 2004/5/29 9:09Profile
Jimm
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498
Harare, ZIMBABWE

 Re: Why does a Christian still commit sins?

Hey Nasher

You have a great discussion going here. When I read your question it made me think of the passage in John11: “8 His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again? 9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. 10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.”

It is impossible to sin while we are in the light and yet, to be a confessing Christian does not guarantee remaining in the light. Again Jesus said in John12,“35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. 36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

To walk (in the light) requires energy and investment on our part (prayer, praise worship). When you cease to walk in the light then you are in darkness, and you stumble. You would argue that we are justified by faith and not by works but consider James2, “26for as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead”. So although you may be in the light for a moment, you must chose to remain in the light.

Does this suggest spiritual death? I do not believe so because of what is suggest by the scripture, 1Cor15, “6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.” And sleep, in my opinion, is a cousin of death in this respect, when we are dead there is no light in us, just as when we are asleep. So finally to answer your question I believe that we sin when we have no light in us and when we are asleep (spiritually).

James


_________________
James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2004/5/30 9:49Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Hi Inwardman, where does it say that a man cannot live without sinning once he becomes a Christian?


Jude 24:
Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy


_________________
Mark Nash

 2004/6/1 8:21Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Inwardman writes that we are kidding ourselves if we believe we cannot sin. (paraphrase) As I read scripture it seems clear that we are actually calling God a liar. Chapter 2:1 tells us John was writing to Saints (little children). He goes on to make a strong case that born again believers have His Seed remaining in them and that they cannot sin because they are born of God. Paul answers this by saying, "It is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." Not that he was not responsible, but that he saw the need to be delivered from the wretchedness of the body of this death.

I John 1:8-10 (NIV)

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.



_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2004/6/1 8:59Profile
Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

I think [b]inwardman[/b] actually said, [i]"But, we will always have some [b]trouble[/b] in this flesh, anyone who says differently is just kidding themselves."[/i]

Christ's death and resurrection opened a way to living a holy life; and released us from the bondage of sin. Nevertheless, on this side of resurrection, in this imperfect body, I think it is fair to say that even Christians will experience [i]struggles with sin.[/i]

Is it possible to achieve "sinless perfection"? Maybe. But when I pray at night, I ask myself "what sins I have to confess", not "whether I have sinned at all."


_________________
Sam

 2004/6/1 10:37Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Keith Writes:

Quote:
As for "why do Christians sin?" Well, we're all still tempted (as Jesus was, and as James made clear that every man is), and the sources of those temptations might be categorized as: the flesh, the world, and the devil.

Interesting question about why the flesh should have any influence, being crucified, but it would appear that the congenital depravity inherited from Adam does not entirely disappear upon conversion. I think some forms of the doctrine of Entire Sanctification include a total purging of this source of temptation.

Anyway, being tempted is not sin, failing to refuse the temptation is. Why do Christians do that? The weaknesses and temptations do not force them to do so, and God makes a way of escape with each temptation (1 Cor. 10:13), so they can avoid sinning. Nonetheless, sometimes we get back into that old self-centered mode and sin.

Why? I suppose because we want to. May we never want to.



I think this is a good summary of some of the issues. The question is why would we WANT to sin or more perfectly- why would a Christian be tempted to sin? Why the wretchedness? Why do we find another law working in our members? Are we not in Christ? Was Christ not sinless? Why then, if we are in Him, would we be tempted to sin? This issue in itself is up for debate; but, we all know that we ARE tempted to sin.

We ALL must flee youthful lusts that war against the soul. We ALL must flee fornication. We ALL must lay aside every weight and the sin that does so easily beset us. We ALL must refuse to allow sin to reign in our mortal bodies. We ALL must get under our body and bring it into subjection lest when we have preached to others we would be disqualified (adokimos). If we sow to the flesh we will of the flesh reap corruption- but if we sow to the spirit we will reap life everlasting. We all must be sober and vigilant. We all must take heed lest we fall. These issues are so common in the New Testament that surely we can't miss them.

Beloved, let us be the watchmen of our own souls. And again I say... watch!


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2004/6/1 12:12Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
We all must be sober and [b]vigilant[/b].



[i]"Gal 5:16 This I say then,[b]Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not[/b] fulfil the lust of the flesh."[/i]

Something about this [b]bold[/b] type today :-)


_________________
Mike Balog

 2004/6/1 13:37Profile
Netpreacher
Member



Joined: 2004/5/22
Posts: 9
Portland, OR

 Biblical Perfection

What a great forum; already two of my favorite topics discussed! I am surprised nobody has brought up the passages from 1 John as a Scriptural proof of a perfect Christian life without sin. It seems most people who claim to be believers would rather focus on the passages that seem to allow unrighteousness rather than press towards the mark of the high calling of God through faith in the death of Christ, calling it their own, and by the blood of Jesus Christ shed on the cross, all sin has been dealt with, including the very source and thought of sin, by nailing this old flesh to the cross with Christ. How can a dead man commit sin against God? Only by faith in the bodily resurrection of Christ, applying it to our hearts through faith in the wonderous work of the cross of Calvary, by applying that to our lives, by making Christ our life, we can walk with newness of life regardless of the flesh's appettites or its carnal agendas.

Below are some Scriptural proof of the fact of a born-again Christian's experience of abstinence from sin.

CHRISTIAN PERFECTION

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:6-9)

Christians Are To Be Righteous

If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. (1 John 2:29) And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. (Luke 1:6) For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them. (Matthew 13:17) For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:20) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)

If You Sin, It Will Kill You

Stand in awe, and sin not: commune with your own heart upon your bed, and be still. (Psalms 4:4) Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. (1 Corinthians 15:34) She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. (John 8:11) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:2) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezekiel 18:4) But if ye will not do so, behold, ye have sinned against the LORD: and be sure your sin will find you out. (Numbers 32:23)

The Blood Of Christ Frees Us From The Power Of Sin

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. (Matthew 1:21) For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; (Hebrews 7:26) But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (Hebrews 8:6-7) For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. (Hebrews 7:19) For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (Hebrews 10:1) For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (Hebrews 10:14) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Hebrews 11:40) But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. (Hebrews 6:9)

Be Perfect

Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. (1 John 4:17) Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. (Philippians 3:15) Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you. (2 Corinthians 13:11) For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection. (2 Corinthians 13:9) Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: (1 Corinthians 2:6) Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: (Colossians 1:28)

Christians Can Be Perfect

Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God. (Colossians 4:12) Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith? (1 Thessalonians 3:10) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Timothy 3:17) Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. (Hebrews 13:20-21) But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. (James 1:4) For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body. (James 3:2) Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit. (Hebrews 6:1-3) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Matthew 5:48)

It Is Possible To Be Perfect

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. (Revelation 22:11) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. (Romans 6:6-7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (Romans 8:7) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 5:23) Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (2 Corinthians 7:1) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. (Romans 6:13) Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: (Hebrews 12:14)

Don't Worry If Someone Starts Saying They're Perfect, But Really Aren't

If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse. (Job 9:20) For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars. (2 Chronicles 16:9)

---

Now, after listing all these references, keep in mind this one simple Christian truth, reiterated by Christ in John's Gospel: if a man testifies of himself, his testimony is meaningless; but if another's testimony agrees with the testimony of God concerning one's righteousness, that you may consider as foolproof. Truly, only God can reveal how you can be perfect without sin; but that comes through faith in Christ's work done for us at the cross of Calvary for the remission of ALL sin, including the very thought of sin which begins in the heart (for if Christ gives us a new heart, why would we be worried about the old heart which God supposedly replaced with His?), as well as the power of God through the resurrection power of the Holy Ghost which lives within us. Only by the grace of God, received by faith in Christ alone, can we walk perfectly in love towards His holy commands.

Love, In Christ Jesus,
Danny

PS Hope this doesn't confuse anyone, and if it does, please let me know quickly! I don't want anyone to assume anything incorrect concerning Scripture, so please speak up!


_________________
Danny Howe

 2004/6/4 2:09Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re: Biblical Perfection

Bro Danny,

You Write:

Quote:
It seems most people who claim to be believers would rather focus on the passages that seem to allow unrighteousness rather than press towards the mark of the high calling of God through faith in the death of Christ, calling it their own, and by the blood of Jesus Christ shed on the cross, all sin has been dealt with, including the very source and thought of sin, by nailing this old flesh to the cross with Christ. How can a dead man commit sin against God? Only by faith in the bodily resurrection of Christ, applying it to our hearts through faith in the wonderous work of the cross of Calvary, by applying that to our lives, by making Christ our life, we can walk with newness of life regardless of the flesh's appettites or its carnal agendas.



I agree with you in this. The issue on this forum has not been so much if we should press towards perfection; but rather two main things stick out to me:

1) Does a Born Again believer still have to deal with the flesh (GK sarx. sin nature)

2) Can a Christian move into a realm where they are no longer TEMPTED to sin.

Question 1) My position is that a believer obviously must not sow to the flesh lest they reap corruption. Provision must not be made for the flesh to fulfill its lusts. Etc.


Question 2) My postition is that "Every man is tempted." The temptation in itself is not sin, yielding to it is. We do not have to yield to sin- however, on rare occasions well saved Christians choose to or will to in a moment of weakness. Personally I do not feel like a Christian should ever yield to a "damnable sin"- or a sin which scripture clearly says "They that commit such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God." These things ought NOT to be named among us ONCE as becometh Saints.

As for I John and like passages; most here would well concur as it is a great source for passages on Christian perfection. Where I part company with some is that we could reach a level of perfection that reaches beyond what the New Testament teaches. In other words we will never reach a place where we do not need to 1) Flee youthful lusts that war against the soul 2) Flee fornication 3) lay aside every weight and the sin that does so easily beset us 4) Exercise our senses 5) Take heed lest we fall 6) Die daily 7) Bring our body into subjection lest when we have preached to others we ourselves would be a castaway (GK adokimos; KJV; reprobate, disqualified, rejected).

Welcome to this forum!

God Bless and we look forward to your input!





_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2004/6/4 8:26Profile





©2002-2024 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Revival to this Generation.
Privacy Policy