| Poster | Thread |
| | Re: | | We as Gentiles have always had the law written on our hearts and now through faith we are grafted in with the Jews.
On the flip side the Jews are trying to live by the law they have without the faith in Jesus Christ alone that saved the Gentiles.
Now today it's interesting to see how that many Gentile christians are trying to go back to the law believing that perhaps thier faith alone in the cross is not enough.
The Jews today are trying to live as the Gentiles:
"No Temple? No Problem!
Rabbinic teaching acknowledges that man must find atonement for his sin but the question is, by what means? After the destruction of the temple and with it the cessation of the sacrificial offerings, the primary concern of the Talmudic writers was to assure the Jew that he could still obtain forgiveness and acceptance, that there was still atonement for sin even though the sacrificial system had been removed. A modern writer, Rabbi Cohen, says on this very question: "The greatest accomplishment which the teaching of the Talmud achieved for the Jewish people was to make them feel that the end of the temple did not imply an end to religion. Severe as the loss was, the way to God was kept open. In addition to charity, justice, the Torah, study, there was also prayer which was declared to be even greater than sacrifices."
http://www.cwi.org.uk/Jewishpeople/Atonement.htm
So what's the answer? The narrow road. We as christians are to worship God in spirit and in truth.
John 4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
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|  2007/11/30 11:17 | |
| | Re: | | Quote:
They have already been regenerated or they could not believe. They are eternally secure because of their profession of faith."
This is the great misconception and lie. No one is first regenerated (Born of the Spirit) before they believe or have the ability to believe.
The Holy Spirit comes to those who repent and THEN they are sealed by the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians
Our salvation comes to those who are quickened together with Christ, the risen Christ, WE are saved by His Life, His risen life. Sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise and baptized into His Body. There are no Christians floating around in limbo outside the Body of Christ.
Paul makes CLEAR the order of which one receives the Holy Spirit and that is AFTER we hear, not before.
Please look in your Strong's concordance **Regeneration**, and you will find only two scripures using the word regeneration. Neither of these verses calim to say regeneration comes first and is given to any elect first.
In Matthew, Follow Jesus into Regeneration..... is a promise to those who do.
To follow>>>>> Jesus into regeneration one must identify in Jesus death and resurrection life...Romans 6-8.
Reading these verses Paul puts down and compare Matthew 19 and the promises to those in verse 19 here.
Ephesians 1:12-14
12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
[u][i]13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also *****after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, [/i][/u]
14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Love in Christ
Katy-Did
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| | 2007/11/30 11:34 | | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
Logic and Katy-Did,
Logic and Katy-Did,
Do you think Robert is a Calvinist? He isn't. I think you misinterpreted his post. He was using an example of an argument, not necessarily one he believes...
Quote:
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I don't think it is good to counter error with more error. If I present an argument like so: "If unconditional election is true then all one needs find is who will 'believe' on Christ. When we find them, we have found the 'elect'. They have already been regenerated or they could not believe. They are eternally secure because of their profession of faith."
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The argument I presented I do [u]not[/u] believe. It is my understanding of how unconditional election ultimately plays out.
My point is, I think the 'starting point' has to be right or error will be heaped on top of error.
_________________
Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2007/11/30 16:31 | Profile | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
Rabbinic teaching acknowledges that man must find atonement for his sin but the question is, by what means? After the destruction of the temple and with it the cessation of the sacrificial offerings, the primary concern of the Talmudic writers was to assure the Jew that he could still obtain forgiveness and acceptance, that there was still atonement for sin even though the sacrificial system had been removed. A modern writer, Rabbi Cohen, says on this very question: "The greatest accomplishment which the teaching of the Talmud achieved for the Jewish people was to make them feel that the end of the temple did not imply an end to religion. Severe as the loss was, the way to God was kept open. In addition to charity, justice, the Torah, study, there was also prayer which was declared to be even greater than sacrifices."
Acts of tzedikah as they are called. All sorts of things have been elevated to compensate for no Temple. However, it is the greatest offense against Christ and His work on the Cross. But if you listen close enough, what you are really hearing is, "I don't need a sacrifice to pay for [u]my[/u] sins."
_________________
Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2007/11/30 16:36 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Robert,
[u]1.[/u] Jesus did die for the sins of the whole world. I'm not saying that Jesus didn't die for our sins.
All I am saying is that the punishment of sin is hellfire. Jesus didn't suffer hellfire so Jesus didn't take our punishment.
But Jesus did suffer for our sins. Jesus did die for our sins.
It is a substitution, a substituted suffering:
- Christ is substituted with the sinner
- Blood shed is substituted with eternal agony
- The cross is substituted with hellfire
- Calvary is substituted with hell
- A day is substituted with eternity
The atonement is a substituted to our exact and literal punishment. The law required either our punishment (hellfire) or an atonement (blood shed).
And now that Christ has suffered for all of our sins, nobody has to be punished for their sins. Since Christ has suffered for us, we don't have to suffer for our sins. That is what the atonement accomplishes. But the conditions are repentance and faith.
God said that he would pardon our debt and forgive us our sins, upon condition of blood shed - repentance - and faith. And once those three conditions are met, our punishment of hellfire can be dispensed with.
[u]2.[/u] Imputed righteousness does not mean righteousness is transfered from one person to another. Imputed righteousness simply means accounted righteousness.
Imputed, accounted, reckoned, considered, all mean the same thing. Abraham's faith was considered righteousness.
And because of what Christ did, God is able to forgive us our sin and treat us as if we were righteous. So we have imputed or accounted righteousness. Not that Christ's obedience is transfered to us. But that because of Christ's obedience, God is able to consider us righteous, God is able to forgive us.
Romans 4 is where the true doctrine of imputed righteousness is found. Imputed righteousness is the same thing as forgiveness. It means that God forgives us, does not hold our past against us, and considers us and treats us as righteous.
[u]3.[/u] I would recommend reading the writings of Jonathon Edwards, Albert Barnes, and Charles Finney on the atonement and on imputed righteousness. These three great theologians all agreed on imputed righteousness and the atonement.
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| | 2007/11/30 19:34 | | vico
Member
Joined: 2005/5/25
Posts: 258
| | Re: | | Brother, what do you make of this verse?
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." 2Corintians 5:21
Did Christ become sin, the despicable thing?
Quote:
2. Imputed righteousness does not mean righteousness is transfered from one person to another. Imputed righteousness simply means accounted righteousness.
Are we not made the righteousness of God in Him?
Quote:
Romans 4 is where the true doctrine of imputed righteousness is found. Imputed righteousness is the same thing as forgiveness. It means that God forgives us, does not hold our past against us, and considers us and treats us as righteous.
"He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD." Proverbs 17:15
Has God become an abomination to Himself by justifying the wicked?
Quote:
3. I would recommend reading the writings of Jonathon Edwards, Albert Barnes, and Charles Finney on the atonement and on imputed righteousness. These three great theologians all agreed on imputed righteousness and the atonement.
In love i would recommend the reading of the Word of God alone in deciding doctrine.
The Word of God is really not all that complicated. Its quite simple really. We need to be able to read it, and believe it for what it says. Obedience i believe is the key to understanding scripture. Knowledge of God is given by the Holy Spirit.
1Co 2:10-14 "But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
The Spirit is given to those who obey. Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
Jesus said: "...My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. John 7:16-17
When we are obedient to what we know to be the will of God, when we follow the example and teaching of Christ, then often the things that were dim to our understanding will become clearer.
Another wonderful thing about scripture is that there is much that can be left as a mystery, and it is beautiful that way. To be content not to know all things, to leave omniscience up to God, and to find our rest contentment and fulfillment in knowing Him.
Remember, the Word of God is living. Let's not treat it as a dead thing to be analyzed and figured out. It(He) is living and powerful, someone to be known.
May this Word fill us and flow out of us as living water bringing life to many.
May the Word become flesh once again in each of us. |
| | 2007/11/30 21:08 | Profile | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Hi Jesse,
Quote:
All I am saying is that the punishment of sin is hellfire. Jesus didn't suffer hellfire so Jesus didn't take our punishment.
I understand. But I still don't think this statement and position is accurately following what the scripture teaches by making the dogmatic assertion that our punishment is hellfire therefor Jesus would have to go 'to hell' for us in order for Him to take our punishment.
(Luke 12:50) but I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how am I pressed till it may be completed!
In this passage it is certain the our Lord is speaking of His future suffering when He speaks of a baptism. The language is Hebraic in that He essentially doubles up on the word 'baptism'. We see this in Genesis when God told Adam "dying thou shalt die" and when terms such as Holy of holies, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Song of Songs, etc. are used. It is for emphasis sake. This baptism to be baptized with would be the 'ultimate baptism'.
A study of the history of the subject of baptism would be in order here. I believe it is a faithful saying to say that Christ was baptized into what Adam had become for the sake of [i]dying[/i] to it. In this we will share no real agreement, as you deny that Sin (the dynamic) entered the human race through the one man Adam. Christ was made to become Sin for us that knew no sin. Most commentators say a 'sin offering' and then turn and skirt around Galatians 3:13 when He was made a 'curse' for us. The Gentiles have little trouble with this, but this was a serious stumbling block for the Jews. They knew that'cursed is everyone that hangeth on the tree.'
Christ took upon Himself what we bacame and what we deserved. Having been baptized into what we were- He died to it in our place. This is a major facet of the working of Christ on the Cross to break the power of Sin. He died to Sin once and lived unto God. Because we have been baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit- we are partakers of that death and are liberated from Sin. He that is dead is free from Sin.
We have had this conversation before and some have said they believe that Hell is 'Hell' because God [u]IS[/u] there (in His wrath). This would coincide with Edwards view, especially as he wrote on [i]the sufferings of the wicked contemplated by the righteous[/i]. I contend that Hell is 'Hell' because God is [u]not[/u] there. Certainly not in the sense that we know Him. God may well be said to be in the bars and pool halls of this land, but certainly not in the sense that we know Him. God is of a truth in hell also if we made our bed there. However, to me, Hell is being forsaken of God. What could possibly be a worse Hell than that? You could turn the temperature up to a trillion degrees and if the mind could assemble an intelligent thought- he/she had still be even more so vexed by the notion that God had forsaken them to the flames. When I call on God and He does not answer; that [u]IS[/u] Hell. What fire could override such an unspeakably vexing torment of mind; who could plumb the length and depth and breadth and height as to hear the words DEPART FROM ME?
To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.> My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent. But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.(Psalm 22:1-3)
Hell is when a person praises God and He refuses to inhabit. I must yield the remainder to the late Adam Clarke when he said; "What a terrible word! What a dreadful separation! Depart from Me! from the very Jesus whom you have proclaimed in union with whom alone eternal life is to be found. For, united to Christ, all is heaven; separated from him, all is hell."
_________________
Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2007/11/30 22:31 | Profile |
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