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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Did Christ Take Our PUNISHMENT?

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PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
If "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life", then the wages of sin must be eternal death, which is hellfire. Eternal life is contrasted with eternal death (hellfire).





Was the wages of Adam's sin hellfire? Or was it death? Adam died the moment he ate of the fruit.

If you put that verse in reference to Adam, I think it makes sense. It wasn't too long before that verse Paul was talking about Adam and Christ...


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Josh Parsley

 2007/11/27 11:54Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Lazarus1719 wrote:
Consider this:

If the punishment for sin (and not the natural consequences of sin) consist in physical death and spiritual death, then there is no punishment after judgment day.

That is because, both physical death and spiritual death occur to sinners before judgment day. So judgment day really does not bring any punishment, unless hellfire is a punishment.

But I would argue that physical death and spiritual death are natural consequences of sin, while hellfire is the actual punishment for sin. As opposed to those who say that physical death and spiritual death are the punishment of sin, while hell fire is the consequence of sin.

Physical death is a natural consequence of Adams sin, since we were removed from the Garden.

Spiritual death is a natural consequence of our own sin, since God must separate Himself from all sin.

Eternal death is the actual punishment for our sin, since judgment day brings punishment for personal actions, and after judgment day is hell fire (eternal death).
Quote:
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Since the Gift is spiritual life, then the wage must be spiritual also.

If "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life", then the wages of sin must be eternal death, which is hellfire. Eternal life is contrasted with eternal death (hellfire).

To suffer the natural consequences of sin is the actual punishment for sin.
I would still think that Eternal death in hellfire is only the natural consequence of dieing in spiritual death, dying in your sins.

How is this for an example: if I start smoking, the natural consequences that is stinky house, My wife who would not be smoking would be experiancing a natural consequences of my smoking even while she does not smoke.
I would die from smoking because it is my sin, while she would only stink.

So it is with Adam, He smoked(ate from the tree) we all stink. Adam died(spiritauly) from eating,
We all stink.

We all started to smoke by choice from Adams example, therefore, we all stink and dye too.

 2007/11/27 12:20Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Was the wages of Adam's sin hellfire? Or was it death?



God told Adam that the day that he ate he would die. And the day that he ate, he spiritually died. He died a long time later physically, because he did not have access to the tree of life. But the day that he ate he spiritually died.

But God never said that this was punishment. God simply said that it would happen.

And this was a natural consequence of Adam sinning, because God cannot fellowship with those who are in sin. So those who sin must be separated from God by a natural necessity, it is a necessary consequence.

 2007/11/27 13:03









 Re: Did Christ Take Our PUNISHMENT?

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Psa 22:1 To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Deu 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:


Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings.
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him Godspeed:

2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.

Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Tit 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, especially they of the circumcision:
Tit 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

 2007/11/27 15:31









 Re:

Abe,

Nobody is denying that Christ suffered for our sins.

But the question is, did Christ suffer the exact and literal suffering that we were going to face?

I would argue, like Jonathon Edwards - Albert Barnes - and Charles Finney argued, that the sufferings of Christ are [b]equivalent[/b] in their value to what we deserve, but they were not [b]exact[/b] in their location, duration, degree, or kind.

The atonement is a substitute suffering. The suffering and death of Christ is substituted with the eternal suffering and eternal death of sinners. It is not [b]exact[/b] in it's location, duration, degree, or kind, but it is [b]equivalent[/b] in it's value.

And since Christ has suffered for the sins of the whole world, the whole world no longer has to suffer for it's sins, but God is able to pardon their eternal debt and forgive them of their sins, because Christ has suffered for them.

 2007/11/28 10:21
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Jesse,

It might be helpful for you to explain to us why you feel it is necessary to suggest to folk that Christ did not die for their sins?

For I delivered unto you [u]first of all[/u] that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; (I Cor. 5:20)

It seems that we move from one unorthodox point to another and some even bordering on full-on heresy. Wherein can it be justified, especially for the sake of foolish questions and strifes about words, that one would even ask, "Did Christ take our punishment?"

The only reason I can imagine that this is even brought up is as an attack on [i]imputed sin[/i] and [i]imputed righteousness[/i]. If sin cannot be imputed- neither can righteousness (in the Finneys theology). This would strike at the very root of Christianity.

and fulfilled was the Writing that is saying, 'And Abraham did believe God, and it was [u]reckoned to him -- to righteousness;'[/u] and, 'Friend of God' he was called. (James 2:23)

This is the foundation of justification by faith. We are saved by grace through faith.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/11/29 9:15Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
And since Christ has suffered for the sins of the whole world, the whole world no longer has to suffer for it's sins, but God is able to pardon their eternal debt and forgive them of their sins, because Christ has suffered for them.



I don't think it is good to counter error with more error. If I present an argument like so: "If unconditional election is true then all one needs find is who will 'believe' on Christ. When we find them, we have found the 'elect'. They have already been regenerated or they could not believe. They are eternally secure because of their profession of faith." This is an oversimplification of the issue. It sounds 'logical', but is it truth?

To follow along with this reasoning then it becomes necessary, logically' to declare a 'limited atonement' or face the prospect of Universalism. The atonement seems to always come under fire when election is concerned. But the scripture paints a much more complex picture than what most will allow. It is impossible to force a system of logic upon the scripture text just to prove the point. So it is not necessary for me to come up with a means of dealing with the first argument because I know it is not the complete truth. This is how I ensure that error does not beget more error. My understanding of God does not require that I make Him the cause of all things. I believe God created man with the capacity to choose other than the will of God.

The question is, if Christ died for all then why are not [u]all[/u] saved? There are numerous passages that relay this point. the answer to this, for me, is knowing that God does not appropriate the finished work of Christ upon the Cross to anyone that does not rightly respond to Him in faith. The JUST shall live by faith. This, to me, is to cease resisting the Holy Spirit. Christ offered Himself without spot to God through the Eternal Spirit.

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (Hebrews 9:14)

This is likely why a person that blasphemes the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness. If a person send away or grieve away the Holy Spirit; how could the blood of Christ be appropriated to them? He offered the blood through the Eternal Spirit and we [i]receive[/i] it's benefits through the Eternal Spirit (the Spirit of Grace). If one resists the Holy Ghost- they resist the one that can [i]apply[/i] the blood.

How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." (Heb. 9 NASB)

Insulting the Spirit of Grace and trodding the blood under foot warrants a more sore punishment. Why? Because it is an ADDITIONAL and more grievious sin to trod the blood under foot. This is more than a simple rejection of an offer of forgiveness. This is a trampling under foot of the price paid for my personal sins. What does God say to that?

It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.(NASB)





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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/11/29 11:24Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
RobertW wrote:
Quote:
And since Christ has suffered for the sins of the whole world, the whole world no longer has to suffer for it's sins, but God is able to pardon their eternal debt and forgive them of their sins, because Christ has suffered for them.

I don't think it is good to counter error with more error. If I present an argument like so: "If unconditional election is true then all one needs find is who will 'believe' on Christ. When we find them, we have found the 'elect'. They have already been regenerated or they could not believe. They are eternally secure because of their profession of faith." This is an oversimplification of the issue. It sounds 'logical', but is it truth?

You are in error because you think that since Christ has suffered and paid all that is needed and atoned for all sin, you think that universalism is the result.
Remember that Israel in slavery had to apply the blood on their own doorposts, so it is with us, The lamb was slain for all, but we must apply HIS blood to our selves.
You are also in error because you think that one needs this so called "regeneration" in order to do that.
That would be equivalent to saying, "Do this or die, but I will not let you do it so you will die for disobedianc."
The question is, if Christ died for all then why are not all saved?
Quote:
The question is, if Christ died for all then why are not all saved?

Because alll do not want to have a free gift out of pride or ignorance.
Quote:
I believe God created man with the capacity to choose other than the will of God.

However, you think that mankind can not choose other than the will of God uless "regenerated".
Quote:
the answer to this, for me, is knowing that God does not appropriate the finished work of Christ upon the Cross to anyone that does not rightly respond to Him in faith.

However, you think that God must initiate their responce first.

 2007/11/29 14:31Profile









 Re:

Quote:
You are in error because you think that since Christ has suffered and paid all that is needed and atoned for all sin, you think that universalism is the result.



Great insight Logic:

That is correct Logic,their thinking is all wrong concerning the atonement and a silly argument that doesn't apply to the truth. If Jesus said in John 3:16 "Whosoever Will", or "As many as receive me" and "to those who repent", we can understand by these comments that salvation is a personal one on one relationship with the Lord.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

 2007/11/30 9:35
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Logic and Katy-Did,

Do you think Robert is a Calvinist? He isn't. I think you misinterpreted his post. He was using an example of an argument, not necessarily one he believes...

Quote:
I don't think it is good to counter error with more error. If I present an argument like so: "If unconditional election is true then all one needs find is who will 'believe' on Christ. When we find them, we have found the 'elect'. They have already been regenerated or they could not believe. They are eternally secure because of their profession of faith."


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2007/11/30 10:58Profile





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