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 Did Christ Take Our PUNISHMENT?

[u][b]DID CHRIST TAKE OUR PUNISHMENT?[/b][/u]

To answer this question, we must ask this question:

[u][b]WHAT IS THE PUNISHMENT OF SIN?[/b][/u]

There are two sides of this argument. There are those who say that physical death is our punishment, and there are those who say that eternal death is our punishment.

I take the side of those who say that eternal death is the punishment for sin. Though physical death is a consequences of Adams sin, since we were kicked out of the garden, eternal death is the direct punishment for each man's personal sin.

[u][b]WHAT IF PHYSICAL DEATH IS OUR PUNISHMENT?[/b][/u]

We know that Christ physically died, He did not burn in hell. So those who argue that Christ took our punishment have to say that physical death, and not hell, is our punishment.

- If physical death is our punishment, and Christ took our punishment so we don't have to be punished, then we should not have to physically die.

- If physical death is our punishment, and Christ took our punishment, and we still physically die, then our sins are punished twice.

- If physical death is our punishment, then once every dies physically, they don't have to face any eternal punishment.

- If physical death is our punishment, and we still physically die, then Christ did not save us from our punishment.

- Whatever Christ saves us from must be the punishment of our sins, since Christ died to save us from our punishment. If Christ saves us from the second death in hell, and not physical death, then hellfire must be the punishment for our sins.

- But if hellfire is our punishment, and Christ did not go to hell, then Christ did not take our punishment, but rather shed his blood for our sins so that our sins don't have to be punished but can be forgiven.

So Christ atoned for our sins, He wasn't punished for our sins. The punishment for our sins was eternal death in hell, not physical death on a cross. But the atonement of Christ was an alternative, replacement, or substitute for our punishment.

[u][b]WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY?[/b][/u]

Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death"

2Th 1:9 "who shall be punished with everlasting destruction"

Rev 20:14 "the lake of fire. This is the second death"

Revelations 21:8 "the lake which burns with fire and brimestone, which is the second death"

So the wages of sin is eternal death in hellfire. The punishment of our sin is "everlasting destruction".

[u][b]SO IF CHRIST DID NOT TAKE OUR PUNISHMENT, WHAT DID CHRIST DO?[/b][/u]

- Christ and his blood shed is the substituted for us and our punishment of hell: Isaiah 53:5

- The law required either an atonement for our sins (blood shed) or the punishment of our sin (hellfire): Heb 9:19, 9:22

- When the atonement of blood is made, the punishment of hell can be set aside: Heb 9:22

- Because Christ shed his blood, God is able to pardon our debts instead of require the payment of our debt: Matt 6:12, Matt 18:27, Luke 7:42

- Because Christ shed his blood, God is able to forgive us our sins instead of punish our sins: Acts 5:31, Acts 13:38, Acts 26:18, Eph 1:7, Col 1:14, Heb 9:22

- Because Christ shed his blood, God is just in forgiving our sins and just in pardoning our debt: Romans 2:26. He is just in setting aside our punishment of hell because the requirement of the law is satisfied: Heb 9:19, 9:22

 2007/11/25 14:47
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re: Did Christ Take Our PUNISHMENT?

Edited for spelling;

Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, whichhe will reprove the world of sin,

What sin is this?

"Taketh Away:" Strong's Greek Dictionary
142. airo
Search for G142 in KJVSL
airw airo ah'-ee-ro
a primary root; to lift up; by implication, to take up or away; figuratively, to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind), specially, to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare 5375) to expiate sin:--away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

What sin is this?

"Will Reprove the world:" Strong's Greek Dictionary
1651. elegcho
Search for G1651 in KJVSL
elegcw elegcho el-eng'-kho
of uncertain affinity; to confute, admonish:--convict, convince, tell a fault, rebuke, reprove.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

What sin is This? "Put away sin:" Strong's Greek Dictionary
115. athetesis
Search for G115 in KJVSL
aqethsiV athetesis ath-et'-ay-sis
from 114; cancellation (literally or figuratively):--disannulling, put away.

"Once", "in the end of the world".

This must be the sin of Adam that we are free from by the Christ in us.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

"he will reprove the world of sin," This must be our personal sins.

This is the Holy Spirit's work. For then we have and Advocate with the Father, (Jesus) for personal sins'.

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

These are personal sin's we commit, in the state of being born again by the Christ birthed in us. The sin of Adam is gone at the Cross, Individual sin is now forgivable by confessing not sacrifice. By the Christ in us we are cleansed of all unrighteousness, God being faithful and just to forgive us personal sin by the Blood of Christ.


There is no punishment for those that are in Christ. The sin of Adam is no longer possible for those in Christ. The sin we commit are forgiven upon confession for those that are in Christ. The Holy Spirit will convict us of Sin and we are forgiven when we confess.

Where does this leave us in the scheme of things. Romans 8:1-3 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

This is not conditional on the believer because of the Christ that is in us according to 1 John 3:9.

What is our conditional responsibility?

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.

We are Holy because of Christ that is birthed in us and is now our very life that we live.

Lev 20:7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I [am] the LORD your God.

1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/11/25 21:59Profile
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 Re:

Jesse,

Christ [b]did[/b] take our punishment upon himself. The biblical word used by God is "propitiation" it is a very important and key doctrine. The wrath of God was poured out on Christ that we deserved.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2007/11/25 22:21Profile









 Re:

Greg,

Why do you think that Jonathon Edwards, Albert Barnes, and Charles Finney all disagreed with that atonement theory? Even Leonard Ravenhills #1 recommended book out of 40 was Albert Barnes book on the atonement.

 2007/11/25 23:24
JoeA
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Joined: 2004/11/29
Posts: 364
Decatur, Illinois

 Re:

With all due respect, who cares what those men disagreed with? The Bible is clear "The Lord hath laid on Him (Christ) the iniquity of us all".

1 Cor 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


_________________
Joe Auvil

 2007/11/25 23:33Profile









 Re:

- Christ and his sufferings is substituted with us and our punishment: Isaiah 53

- The law required either an atonement for our sins (blood shed) or the punishment of our sin (hellfire): Heb 9:19, 9:22

- When the atonement of blood is made, the punishment of hell can be set aside: Heb 9:22

- Because Christ shed his blood, God is able to pardon our debts instead of require the payment of our debt: Matt 6:12, Matt 18:27, Luke 7:42

- Because Christ shed his blood, God is able to forgive us our sins instead of punish our sins: Acts 5:31, Acts 13:38, Acts 26:18, Eph 1:7, Col 1:14, Heb 9:22

- Because Christ shed his blood, God is just in forgiving our sins and just in pardoning our debt: Romans 2:26. He is just in setting aside our punishment of hell because the requirement of the law is satisfied: Heb 9:19, 9:22

[u][b]1. THE EXAMPLE OF THE SCAPE GOAT:[/b][/u] Lev 16:9-10

In this illustration the scape goat would bare the sin of the people away into the wilderness.

[b]Because the scape goat would bare the sins of the people many assumptions have been made. But the text does [u]NOT[/u] allow for the assumptions that:[/b]

- punishment was transferred: the goat did not go to hell.

- moral guilty was transferred: the goat was not a moral agent and guilt cannot be transferred. Guilty has to do with personal actions. Nowhere does the text say that the goat was guilty of anything.

- moral character or moral identity was transferred: Moral character cannot be transferred but can only be developed. Character is not a commodity that can be bought and sold, transferred or inheritted.

The goat did not become a sinner neither did the priest become a goat. God did not see the goat as a sinner but rather as a goat. And God did not see the priest as a goat but rather as a priest.

[u]Sin[/u] was [u]represented[/u] but [u]punishment[/u], [u]guilt[/u], and [u]character[/u] was not [u]transferred[/u].

[b]What does the scape goat illustrate:[/b]

- an atonement is made on behalf of sins: the purpose of the atonement is that it is done for sins. Sacrifices are done [i]for[/i] the sins of the people. The scape goat ceremony was for the sins of the people.

- an atonement substitutes our punishment: an atonement is always an alternative to punishment, which makes it possible for God not to execute the punishment. The scape goat was an alternative (substitute) to the peoples punishment.

- an atonement bares away sins (takes away sins). The effect of the atonement is to lead sinners to repentance. The atonement is to take away the actual sins of the people.

The scape goat would bare away the sins of the people, [b][u]symbolically[/u][/b] showing how an atonement takes away both the punishment of sin and also the actual sins.

[b]JESUS CHRIST:[/b] is our scape goat. He, symbolically and not literally, bore our sins on the tree. That means that Christ died on behalf of our sins (sin offering) so that the sins don't have to be punished and Christ takes away our sins by leading us into repentance.

------------------------------------------------------------

[u][b]2. THE EXAMPLE OF THE PASSOVER LAMB:[/b][/u] Exodus 12:21-23

In this story, a lambs blood was to be put on the door of the house for the plague to passover instead of being poured out.

[b]It must be noticed that[/b]

- the passover lamb did not receive the plague instead of the Israelites

- the passover lamb did not become guilty of anything

- the passover lamb did not become a sinner

- the Israelites did not change identities with the lamb

[b]The passover lamb:[/b]

- Was an [i]alternative[/i] (or substituted) to the plague sent by God.

- Made it possible for the plague to passover instead of poured out.

[b]JESUS CHRIST:[/b] is our passover lamb (1Cor 5:7). He did not receive the plague (wrath) but makes it possible for the plague (wrath) to "passover" instead of being poured out.

------------------------------------------------------------

[u][b]3. THE EXAMPLE OF THE SERPENT IN THE DESERT:[/b][/u] Numbers 21:6-8

As a punishment for sins, God sent serpents to bite the Israelites. To "take away the serpents from among us" Moses, as instructed by God, lifted up a serpent upon a pole so that all who look to it would be healed.

[b]It should be understood that[/b]

- The serpent on the pole was not bitten by the other serpents

- The Israelites did not exchange identities with the serpent on the pole

- The serpent on the pole did not become guilty of any sin

- The serpent on the pole did not become a sinner

[b]The serpent on the pole:[/b]

- Made it possible for the Israelites to be healed (forgiven: escape further punishment). All they had to do with to look to the Serpent on the pole and they would cease from being bitten and would be healed of their wounds.

[b]JESUS CHRIST:[/b] is the serpent in the wilderness (Jn 3:14). Jesus makes it possible for us to be healed, that is, forgiven of our sins so that our sins are not punished. If we will but look to Jesus, we will be saved from wrath and our sins will be forgiven.

------------------------------------------------------------

[u][b]4. THE ACCOMPLISHMENTS OF ANY ATONEMENT:[/b][/u]

There are other accomplishments of an atonement but these are the major ones: Righteousness imparted and righteousness imputed:

[b]- FORGIVENESS:[/b] (Righteousness imputed) Without blood shed their is no forgiveness of sins (Heb 9:11). That means that without an atonement, punishment must be executed. But with an atonement, punishment can be set aside, sins can be forgiven instead of punished.

Romans 3:24-26 says that the blood atonement makes it possible for God to graciously forgive our sins (instead of punish them) and that the blood atonement makes it [b]JUST[/b] for God to do so, since justice requires either atonement or punishment.

[b]- REPENTANCE:[/b] (Righteousness imparted) The Lamb of God takes away our sin(John 1:29) His blood cleanses us from all sin (1John 1:7, 1John 3:5). The effect of the atonement is to bring the sinner to repentance, to cleanse him from all sin, to purify and purge him.

------------------------------------------------------------

[u][b]5. ATONEMENT INSTEAD OF PUNISHMENT:[/b][/u]

The scriptures represent an atonement as an alternative to punishment, or as a substituted for punishment, which makes it possible for God to forgive instead of punish.

[b]AN EXAMPLE:[/b] would be in Numbers 16:46-48. In this story, wrath was being poured out upon the Israelites. But when Aaron made an atonement for sins, the wrath was "stayed" instead of poured out.

------------------------------------------------------------

[u][b]6. FORGIVENESS OF SINS INSTEAD OF PUNISHMENT OF SINS:[/b][/u]

[b]It should be understood that:[/b]

- Sins that are punished are not sins that are forgiven.

- Sins that are forgiven are not sins that are punished.

[b]The bible says:[/b]

- that God actually forgives sins: Mat 9:6, Mark 2:7, Mark 2:10, Luke 5:21, Luke 5:24, Luke 11:4, 1John 1:9.

- that the atonement makes it possible for God to forgive (remission) sins: Mat 26:28, Luke 24:47, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:43, Heb 10:18)

Because of the atonement of Christ, God can actually forgive our sins instead of punish our sins, God can actually be just in setting aside our punishment.

------------------------------------------------------------

[u][b]7. PARDON OF DEBT INSTEAD OF PAYMENT OF DEBT:[/b][/u]

[b]It should be understood that:[/b]

- A debt paid is not a debt pardoned

- A debt pardoned is not a debt paid

- Pardon and forgiveness are synonymous

- Payment and punishment are synonymous

[b]The bible says:[/b]

- God actually pardons the debt: Mat 6:12, Matt 18:27, Luke 7:42.

These are examples of unpaid debts being forgiven. Only unpaid debts can be forgiven, since paid debts are not forgiven but paid.

Matthew 18 particularly makes payment and pardon an antithesis.

God can only pardon our debts, when an atonement is made. An atonement is a substituted for our payment. An atonement is the price of blood to substituted for the payment or penalty of hell.

 2007/11/26 0:57









 Re: Did Christ Take Our PUNISHMENT?

Hi all

It's late here, and I don't feel inclined to argue on this subject, just make a brief comment:

It seems to me that it's another case of "all of the above", if anyone had made a list.

Christ took our punishment, but He also took a whole lot more - He took [i][u]us[/u][/i] to the Cross. He also DID a whole lot more.

Propitiation is only part of the story, taking our punishment is only part of the story, victory over sin, the flesh and the Devil is only part of the story. Whichever aspect of the Atonement we discuss it's only part of the glorious whole.

It's not a case of "either...or"; did He or didn't He? Rather its a case of "and...and"

in Him, whose salvation, and its implications, is far greater than we can ever imagine

Jeannette

 2007/11/26 19:34









 Re:

As mentioned in another thread, take all the OT sacrifices, Temple and Tabernacle, ritual and priestly garments etc etc and it gives some illustration of different aspects of the Atonement.

With that take the duties of the next of kin, the "go'el". He was to marry a widow and raise up children for the one who died. He was to pay off a debt and buy back (redeem) any land that had been sold or any person who had been sold into slavery. He was to avenge a murder...

All of these illustrate in one way or another, different aspects of what Christ has done...

Then there are the "types" and other illustrations, such as God making the covenant with Abraham in Genesis 15, and Abraham sacrificing Isaac - except he didn't after all, because "God has provided Himself a Lamb". And it says in Hebrews 11 that Abraham in a figure received Isaac back from the dead, as Jesus returned from the dead, but not in a figure...

And so on. The whole of the Bible is filled with His work on the Cross, and folk want to argue over a tiny part of it?!!!

Goodnight

Bless you all

Jeannette

 2007/11/26 19:43
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

[b]Rom 6:23[/b] [color=990000]For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.[/color]
Since the Gift is spiritual life, then the wage must be spiritual also.

The penalty of sin is spiritual death which is separation between God from man, not "eternal death in hellfire"

Eternal death in hellfire is only the consequence of dieing in spiritual death, dying in your sins.

Some might figure that Christ would need to have suffered in the amount to which was due for each and every person to satisfy justice, this is to suppose that he needs to suffer an eternal punishment multiplied in intensity and duration, by the whole number of the human race.
However, the penalty of sin is spiritual death.

The only reason that the damned suffer an eternal punishment is because they die without Eternal Life.
If Eternal Life after death is in the presence with God, then to die without Eternal Life is eternal punishment.
If one does not stay in the presence of Christ, there is no other place to be but in outer darkness where there is gnashing of teeth(eternal death in hellfire).

Jesus did die physically & spiritually on the cross.
Jesus died spiritually when He cried, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? Which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
He was separated from God which is spiritual death.
Jesus died physically when He cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. Mat 27:50, Luk 23:46, John 19:30.

Therefore, Christ did take our punishment.

[b]2Thes 1:9[/b] [color=990000]who shall be punished with everlasting destruction[/color]
This verse in talking about when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels(2Thes 1:7)
Therefore, this is not the penalty for sin, it is implying that it is to late for them that know not God(2Thes 1:8) to be saved when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe(2Thes 1:10)

so it is with Rev 20:14 and Revelations 21:8.

Quote:
SO IF CHRIST DID NOT TAKE OUR PUNISHMENT, WHAT DID CHRIST DO?

- Christ and his blood shed is the substituted for us and our punishment of hell: Isaiah 53:5

- The law required either an atonement for our sins (blood shed) or the punishment of our sin (hellfire): Heb 9:19, 9:22

- When the atonement of blood is made, the punishment of hell can be set aside: Heb 9:22

- Because Christ shed his blood, God is able to pardon our debts instead of require the payment of our debt: Matt 6:12, Matt 18:27, Luke 7:42

- Because Christ shed his blood, God is able to forgive us our sins instead of punish our sins: Acts 5:31, Acts 13:38, Acts 26:18, Eph 1:7, Col 1:14, Heb 9:22

- Because Christ shed his blood, God is just in forgiving our sins and just in pardoning our debt: Romans 2:26. He is just in setting aside our punishment of hell because the requirement of the law is satisfied: Heb 9:19, 9:22


All these Scripturse are for the forgivness of sins so that we may have a way to the Father by the blood of Jesus by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh(Heb 10:19-20) so that we may draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience(Heb 10:22)
Quote:
But if hellfire is our punishment, and Christ did not go to hell, then Christ did not take our punishment, but rather shed his blood for our sins so that our sins don't have to be punished but can be forgiven.

Amen.
Quote:
So Christ atoned for our sins, He wasn't punished for our sins.

He took our place in judgment by dying spiritualy on the cross.
Remember, "It is finished".

 2007/11/26 21:14Profile









 Re:

Consider this:

If the punishment for sin (and not the natural consequences of sin) consist in physical death and spiritual death, then there is no punishment after judgment day.

That is because, both physical death and spiritual death occur to sinners before judgment day. So judgment day really does not bring any punishment, unless hellfire is a punishment.

But I would argue that physical death and spiritual death are natural consequences of sin, while hellfire is the actual punishment for sin. As opposed to those who say that physical death and spiritual death are the punishment of sin, while hell fire is the consequence of sin.

Physical death is a natural consequence of Adams sin, since we were removed from the Garden.

Spiritual death is a natural consequence of our own sin, since God must separate Himself from all sin.

Eternal death is the actual punishment for our sin, since judgment day brings punishment for personal actions, and after judgment day is hell fire (eternal death).

Quote:
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Since the Gift is spiritual life, then the wage must be spiritual also.



If "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life", then the wages of sin must be eternal death, which is hellfire. Eternal life is contrasted with eternal death (hellfire).

 2007/11/27 10:47





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