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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Fall of Adam Commentary (NOT Augustinian!)

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PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
What is your nature? Your nature is your constitution. How can your constitution be sinful in and of itself?



I must have an old fashioned mind when it comes to the word constitution. I usually don't think of it as meaning something physical. Here is what dictionary.com says about it. In my mind, I usually think of it as the definition that is labeled "Archaic."

1. the way in which a thing is composed or made up; makeup; composition: the chemical constitution of the cleanser.
2. the physical character of the body as to strength, health, etc.: He has a strong constitution.
3. Medicine/Medical, Psychology. the aggregate of a person's physical and psychological characteristics.
4. the act or process of constituting; establishment.
5. the state of being constituted; formation.
6. any established arrangement or custom.
7. (initial capital letter) Constitution of the United States.
8. the system of fundamental principles according to which a nation, state, corporation, or the like, is governed.
9. the document embodying these principles.
10. [b]Archaic. character or condition of mind; [u]disposition[/u]; temperament.[/b]


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Josh Parsley

 2007/11/27 11:41Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
So when the bible says "by nature children of wrath" that is referencing their habits developed by their choices, since the context is talking about, "children of disobedience".



A new heart also will I give you, [u]and[/u] a [i]new spirit will I put within you[/i]: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. (Ezek. 36:26)

If we have need of a 'new' spirit it is evident that the old spirit was a problem. I view this 'new' spirit that God promised the Born Again to be the Holy Spirit- manifest as the Spirit of Adoption whereby we cry ABBA Father and receive the witness of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit was among the OT saints also, but, especially under the Law I believe the Holy Spirit worked differently from a position of fear via conviction. But, for the Born Again the Holy Spirit has been given unto us, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience is replaced. Some spirit is working in all peoples. The spirit of disobedience WORKS disobedience by causing the person to will and to do the lusts of their father the devil. It is the SPIRIT of the enemy that carries the tendency to rebel against the laws of God; this I believe is the law of Sin. The Holy Spirit WORKS obedience in us and causes us to will and to do His good pleasure. We can disobey, but it is not our new nature.

Make sense?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/11/27 11:43Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: an image of God, or the image of God and the brightness of His glory?

Brother Robert,


"If we have need of a 'new' spirit it is evident that the old spirit was a problem."


Or rather than [i]a problem[/i] I wonder if we could say instead [b]inadaquate[/b].


I say inadaquate in this sense: that it was not sufficient, in and of itself, to live in the body, in this world, as it is after the [i]fall[/i], under all its pressures and so forth, without sin. Because it was not divine, that is our human spirit is not divine.



I think, because God had called everything that He had made very good, that Adam was complete and whole and well suited to live [b]in the environment that he was created to live in[/b].



But, having lost that [i]paradise[/i], where all of his needs were met, and to which he was ideally suited for, that is the life which he had, having lost that, he was now thrust out into an environment of which he was wholly inadaquate to live in, in which was the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life.


And the result was this: this one who was made in the image of God was now living in a world in which he would fall short of the glory of that image. Romans 3:23 indicates that is what happens when we sin:


For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God


We come short of God's glory, which, being in His image, we ought to and are responsible to bear. Failing this then, seems to me, to be called sin.


I think this is summed up in this phrase which has stuck with me now for some time, which I heard in a message by Major Ian Thomas, where he says to the effect


[b]It takes God to be a man[/b].



And this was most supremely evident in God sending His Son to be the Saviour of the world, Who was, not an image of God, but the very image of God Himself, and the brightness of His glory.


And He, the Son of God, the express image and brightness of God's glory, being manifested in the flesh, He says of Himself




[b][color=660000]Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. [/color][/b]



He could do nothing without the Father. And so it was with Adam, though Adam in transgressing and loosing the paradise, became responsible to live as God, without the divine nature.



And so it is in God bringing salvation to us through His Son, he gives to us His Holy Spirit, through which we are made partakers of that divine nature and given what pertains to life, and godliness.



What do you all think?


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/11/27 18:45Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

I have been thinking of this more and would like to add something for clarification.




"I say inadaquate in this sense: that it was not sufficient, in and of itself, to live in the body, in this world, as it is after the fall, under all its pressures and so forth, without sin. Because it was not divine, that is our human spirit is not divine."



What I would like to add to this is [b]the knowledge of good and evil[/b], so that if I were to rephrase this above, I would add:




...to live in the body, in this world, as it is after the fall, under all its pressures and so forth, [b]with the knowledge of good and evil[/b], [i]yet[/i] without sin.




And so maybe we could add to this...


[b]It takes God to be a man[/b]. That is, to live righteously, in the image of God, [b]with the knowledge of good and evil[/b].



"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil..."


- Genesis chapter 3 verse 22(KJV)




And to connect this with Christ's being the image of God and the brightness of His glory, and of His proving this nescessity of having the divine nature in order to live as God(righteously), if having also the knowledge of good and evil, I see this in the prophet Isaiah



"...by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many..."


- Isaiah chapter 3 verse 11(KJV)



He had this knowledge of good and evil, but never failed of the glory of God.




[b][color=660000]I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. [/color][/b]


- John chapter 17 verse 4(KJV)


And then...


[b][color=660000]And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. [/color][/b]


- John chapter 17 verse 5(KJV)


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/11/27 23:00Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
What do you all think?



Hi Chris,

I need to clarify that my understanding of the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience is not our human spirit (as in [i]spirit[/i], soul, and body), but the literal spirit that is of the Prince of the Power of the Air. I view the human spirit as being in league with the spirit of Antichrist. I don't understand the connection or how this plays out, but I see it as similar to how we are influenced by the Holy Spirit post regeneration. The Holy Spirit 'helpeth' our infirmities. The spirit of disobedience is the opposite. It works in the unregenerate to bring forth fruit unto death. It is a real influence.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/11/28 9:20Profile





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