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 Re:

Quote:

IRONMAN wrote:
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

dear saints i do believe that a major part of our problems with how God operates lies in our own secret vanity. if there is a problem with anything concerning God, we can be sure that the problem isn't with Him but it rests with us. We measure God by our own standard, or try understand Him with out own understanding and the tell tale sign of that is when we find Him unfair, confusing or in any way uncomfortable fot us...God doesn't do what we would do if we were Him...that is our problem, that is the standard we use to measure God, if i were God, i'd not have done this or that, or i'd not have asked this and that, vanity...

That God asked, no told Adam not to mess with that tree says to me obedience wasn't beyond Adam's reach, he did obey for a time. that one of the consequences of that is we are unable to be Saved unless God moves, that is God has already called and chosen the Elect (i take a literal view of Romans 9) is His Divine Prerogative so unless you're Him, you ain't God no business asking the potter why He made you thus...

i remember when Job wanted to get into God's Face about all the drama going on with him and God asked him some questions to which even today we only have answered a few. so like God said "who is this who darkens my counsel with words without knowledge...where were you when I...?" if you weren't there...well...like Job said "uh, uh, uh..."

Some have argued that if God has already chosen then why evangelize, coz He said so, furthermore, he who is among the Elect will not reason in any other way so as to conclude that there is no need to evangelize...no way. it has been presented that this is somehow unfair, he man look, if God has spoken about this and decided what He's going to do, you can jump up and down all you want but it won't mean squat because it is His standard by which we will all be Judged.

the scripture is plain, God chose Isaac, then He chose Jacob over Esau...before either one could do anything...that is Divine Prerogative folks...Esau gave up his birthright because God had already determined before Esau ate that stew that Jacob would have the birthright...in the end it all rests on Him, like Paul said, it ain't about he who runs or wills, but it's about He who shows Mercy. i understand this insamuch as i know i am a vessel of Mercy and as such i'm out looking for other such vessels.

bro Logic, i love you in the Lord but if you want answers to what you asked, you'd better ask the Author. some of us know bits and pieces, enough for us to move along without bugging out over it like you are but unless He brings you to that knowledge which sets you at ease, you'll be running around trying to figure it out all your life and never get anywhere.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.





The first thing I heard God say to me when I read this is that He chose the weak things not the strong.


1 Corinthians 1:27-29
27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29That no flesh should glory in his presence.


This is deliberate, like it or not. Like you were trying to say; God is God and I'm not.



 2007/11/17 22:55









 Re:

Quote:
All messages of importancemust have a firm
foundation in Christ. Even
though the Old Testament
reveals Christ in types and
shadows, this is not a good
foundation for revelation
knowledge. Types are left to
the imagination of the
teacher and to his cleverness
to draw something of
Christ from them. Shadows
are something that can flee
away. These methods do not
make a good foundation for
spirit revelation.
We have a saying in the
Christ-life message, “You
must start out right to end
right.” Truer words were
never spoken. Most modern
preaching starts from
the Old Testament or the
four Gospels, but none of
these have the revelation
of the mystery that was
revealed to Paul. by Frank Stigal.






Hebrews 8:5
Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.



I find the comment by Frank Stigal very interesting.
Because the word Shadow is used by the author of Hebrews and other places in Scripture, Colossians for one, it is necessary that our Revelation Knowledge of Christ is absolutely based upon scriptural fact.

Many today claim to have *revelation knowledge* of Jesus Christ not based on scripture at all.

God had revealed His WILL to *us* through these types and shadows laid out in the Old Testament.

Many words, in the 7 letters to the Churches in
the beginning of Revelation (not to mention through out) take on that of a type or shadow. Example.....does Jezebel really exist today, or are we to draw from this something deeper.

Never underestimate how the Holy Spirit reveals truths to us, not only conforming us to His Image, but keeping us out of trouble.

The OT is fulfilled in the New, and the New is revealed in the Old. The Lord even used parables and allegories to teach us.


The author of Hebrews uses the crossing of the Jordan, The Rest of God and many many more to instruct us. ALL scripture we are told is for instruction in righteousness.

Paul in Corinthians uses the provocation ( Israel's disobedience in the wilderness) as instruction as well.

Not only does this add to the Revelation of the Will of God through Jesus Christ, but the revelation of Jesus Christ to His Church.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

 2007/11/19 13:58









 Re:

1 Corinthians 10:1-12
1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

7Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

8Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

9Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

10Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.


[color=0000FF]11Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. [/color]

[color=0000FF]12Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.[/color]

 2007/11/19 14:19









 Re:


Thank You Glory to Glory. I thought first I would tag this on to my last, but will place here.


PS added for content:


The only hope for fallen, guilty, sinners is redemption, a redemption which includes atonement for sin, satisfaction for justice, and effectual deliverance from the guilt, power, dominion, and consequences of sin. Such redemption could be accomplished by only one Person, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, our Savior. Not only could he alone do it, he has done it, and he has done it alone.

When we consider the doctrine of redemption, we have come to the most important gospel truth. In our day, men attack the doctrine of the cross than any thing else. They deny the efficacy of Christ’s sin-atoning blood than any other doctrine.


Because the doctrine of redemption by the precious blood of Christ is so very important, I urge you to carefully study each verse of Hebrews along with OT Leviticus on this subject, comparing scripture with scripture, asking for clear understanding in the teachings of Holy Scripture about redemption.

The Holy Spirit declares in Hebrews 10:1 - "For the law having a *****shadow***** of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect." According to those words, the law in the Old Testament Scriptures had a shadow of good things to come. That is to say, God, in the Old Testament, under the types and shadows of the law, gave many pictures and prophecies of what he would do for and give to us through his Son, OUR Lord Jesus Christ. The sacrifices offered to God in the Old Testament could never take away one sin. However, the law did have many instructive pictures, types , and shadows of our redemption by the blood of Christ.

In each of those types , pictures, and prophecies it set forth the redemptive work of Christ and has shown us several things now made more obvious. These obvious facts teach us much about the subject of redemption.

With Love Again
Katy

:-)

 2007/11/19 14:31









 Re:

Quote:
Some have argued that if God has already chosen then why evangelize, coz He said so, furthermore, he who is among the Elect will not reason in any other way so as to conclude that there is no need to evangelize...no way. it has been presented that this is somehow unfair, he man look, if God has spoken about this and decided what He's going to do, you can jump up and down all you want but it won't mean squat because it is His standard by which we will all be Judged.



Actually Ironman, the standard that we will be judged is by those who have accepted or rejected Jesus Christ.

You will find in Scripture that in the Beginning:

1. MAN seared his own conscience of the Glory of God they had. We have no Idea what that was like.

2. That Paul said SATAN has blinded the eyes of the lost.

3. That God blinded the eyes of Israel until the fulness of the Gentile comes in.

Each has it's own distinct reasons...Yes!

Jesus said, as Moses lifted up the Serpent in the Wilderness, so must WE lift up Jesus Christ.

John said, the atoning Blood of Jesus Christ, is not only for the us but also for the WHOLE world.

Paul said again , that the Foolishness of God is wiser then men, and just for that reason Salvation is given to those who believe...what, God's exclusion? I don't think that is the Gospel message at all. What GOOD NEWS could there be in that...for teh Lost I mean.

We have been given the Ministry of reconciliation...

[u][b]Be ye reconciled to God through Christ![/b][/u]

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

 2007/11/19 15:07









 Re: This needs attending to:

Quote:
Again, I am seriouse, Please explain this theology with out the above excuses.

Some here on this Forum make this to be only for a chosen few(the Elect), where God is not ALL Loving and very finite in grace; Creating men that are the non-chosen few.
These must be hated creations, for the very purpose of being destroyed in hell, which is contrary to reality.

Some are claiming that man can not even do what is required to be right with God which is to repent and put his faith in/on Christ.

Some claim that one must be "regenerated" first before he can even attempt to repent and put his faith in/on Christ.




Logic,

Here is an answer that I would like to present to you. I Understand your frustration, as I have felt this same frustration through teh teaching of a doctrine I also do not agree with and here is why:

I Believe.....
Election vs. Faith

Romans 9-11 Paul turns aside from his explanation of Grace through Faith , Given to Jew and Gentile alike Romans 1-8 through the preaching of the Gospel, now turns to the present dealing with Israel. God has committed Himself to bless Israel, and look, they have been Nationally set aside for what….he explains why….until the fullness of the Gentile come in.

He is laying a foundation in Romans 9, not of individual election, but of Israel’s Election. Jacob was renamed Israel, not Abraham, not Isaac, but Jacob. The Promise given to Abraham, now more fully developed, where will this seed (Christ), come? The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob must be completely understood. Not Abraham, Ishmael and Esau, as some today would like to think, considering themselves Abraham’s seed. Romans 10- 16, after this complete and thorough announcement, continues back to this MERCY given to Gentiles…ends Romans with stating “My Gospel“ , The Gospel of the Mystery for the obedience of faith …to ALL nations.

Would you like to be a Child of Promise? You can be you know. Those who receive Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of sin, receive the Promise Paul explains in Galatians, The Promise that is now to come to the Gentiles, The Promise of the Spirit. Those who are of the Spirit are the Children of Promise. Yes, that is exactly what Galatians says. The Spirit of the Life of Christ that sets you free from the law of sin and death. You ask, what Law of Sin and death. The law of sin and death that took place at the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve sinned, and all died. Even before the Law of Moses was sin and death. Even before the Law of Moses was this promise made…to Abraham, having nothing what so ever to do with the Law of Moses. Romans 4. So if election were only by those who were picked as Isaac and Jacob, then what would faith have to do with anything.


Israel, mine Elect, was the carrier of the seed, which is Christ, Yes, now that is by election. God elected it so. Their faith had nothing at all to do with it…there was NO FAITH in Isaac or Jacob’s election what so ever. Yet we are SAVED by grace through Faith, not be election. One seed, not many seeds. One seed which is Christ. That is made clear. Now those who believe in elite election must see themselves as many seeds, or many Christ’s . One Christ, One Body. He is the Head, we are His Body.

This is one of the Promises in the Everlasting Covenant, made between Father Son and Holy Spirit on behalf of fallen man.

God knowing before the foundation of the world the fall of man through Adam's sin. He is called the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. Our redemption was predestined. Along with our sanctification to be partakers of the His Holiness (God)through Jesus Christ . 2 Peter 1

No other way to have complete fellowship with God(AGAIN) apart from these truths.



The Preaching of the Gospel is the POWER of God unto salvation. Hearing it and receiving these truths ( faith comes by hearing) not by predestination, but the predestination of the Gospel massage to all who believe and receive God's Gift...Jesus Christ for the Remission/forgivness of sin are guaranteed to be conformed to His image. (The Church) who Christ will present to Himself, without spot or wrinkle.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

 2007/11/19 18:03









 Re: This needs attending to:


Katy-did said

Quote:
He is laying a foundation in Romans 9, not of individual election, but of Israel’s Election.

OK. If I'm reading you correctly then, the 'election of grace' is something about grace seeking out the sinner, and the sinner accepting the call of God on his or her life... It's our response to Jesus' 'whosoever will may come' invitation?


The distinction you make here, is novel, but I see what you mean.
Quote:
Israel, mine Elect, was the carrier of the seed, which is Christ, Yes, now that is by election. God elected it so. Their faith had nothing at all to do with it…there was NO FAITH in Isaac or Jacob’s election what so ever.

EDIT: Except God's! :-)

 2007/11/19 19:34
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

Sis K-D

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

sis K-D you said:


Quote:
Actually Ironman, the standard that we will be judged is by those who have accepted or rejected Jesus Christ.



you're not going to get any argument from me on that note, i was talking in general about the things which God has decided which to us may seem weird, our opinion of them doesn't matter because the standard set is what He has decided. so, if God has predestined, it doesn't matter whether we agree or not because the standard by which that is Judged is what God has spoken.

as far as i am concerned, God's decided, at the end of the day He can't be approached except He moves you to draw near so either way you cut it, it rests on Him.

that's good enough for me so i'm chillin...

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/11/20 0:14Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually Ironman, the standard that we will be judged is by those who have accepted or rejected Jesus Christ.


Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This is how we will be judged.


Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/11/20 3:07Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel



Lets put tht into perspective.

All men, from Adam and Eve to the end of time will be judged according to the Gospel. I do believe at the great white throne, there will be the Book of Life there too. No mattter How good anyone's works were ( possible degrees of hell) if their name was not written in the Book of Life from the foundation fo teh world my understanding is...well!

Paul first mentioned the MYSTERY in Romans 16, not at the beginning of Romans, where he lays the foundation of God and man.

If you are suggesting this Mystery that was intrusted to Paul to bring to the Gentiles will be something OT Saints will be judged by, then I would say, they are eternally lost, for no such knowledge was made known.

However from Genesis 3:15 onward, the Gospel of Salvation has been made known to all. Abel and OT saints, Hebrews 11, knowing nothing about PAUL's GOSPEL, are the Spirits of Just men made perfect...with Christ as we speak. Hebrews 12.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

 2007/11/20 7:46





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