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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 This needs attending to:

Please, if anyone would, defend this. This is very relevant and needs to be explained:

Knowing that the Lamb was slain(the atonement) from before the foundation of the world(Rev 13:8).
Some here on this Forum make this to be only for a chosen few(the Elect), where God is not ALL Loving and very finite in grace; Creating men that are the non-chosen few.
These must be hated creations, for the very purpose of being destroyed in hell, which is contrary to reality.

Some are claiming that man can not even do what is required to be right with God which is to repent and put his faith in/on Christ.

Some claim that one must be "regenerated" first before he can even attempt to repent and put his faith in/on Christ.

This puts the blame on God for them not obeying the command of repenting and putting his faith in/on Christ.

The blame is on Him because one is excused from a command until one is able.

Example:
A family has a law that all members must take turns mowing the lawn.
Along comes Junior, a day old infant.
Is Junior included in the law to maw the lawn, or is he excluded until the ability is come?
This is a fact of reality and can not be discounted just because it is about God,
And must be kept in this anolgy's context.

You have God literally condemning Junior to hell for not mowing the lawn by not giving him the ability first and letting him willingly choose to disobey.
If a father did this in reality, he would be deemd a sadistic, devilish tyrant. Why isn't God the same if this is true?

Or, to put this analogy to reality, You have man with no ability to do what is required to be right with God which is to repent and put his faith in/on Christ.
You have God condemning man to hell for not doing that which they can no do.

You make God wrathful and hating for the reason from His own doing.

You have God wrathful and hating man because He Himself made them blind.

You have God wrathful and hating man because He Himself would not let them obey by not regenerating them.

You have God wrathful and hating man because He Himself made the law of "Federal Headship of Adam" so that all mankind would be condemned in Adam before any one was born(Psalm 51:5).

You have God wrathful and hating man because He Himself made the very nature of man to be sin by the law of "Federal Headship of Adam" which HE Himself instituted. This nature causes all mankind to sin and go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.(Psalm 58:3).

[b]Please explain[/b] How God is Justified in doing all this with out saying, "God is God and I am not, so I have no right to think any thing that lines up with reality and compare it to GOD."
Or
"He is god, he can do what he wants even though it goes against all that is correct, and who am I anyway to question God."

Again, [b]I am seriouse, Please explain this[/b] theology with out the above excuses.

 2007/11/17 12:46Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: This needs attending to:

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=18309&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go]Calvinism vs Arminianism and Wise Advice from Tozer[/url]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/11/17 13:04Profile
Tears_of_joy
Member



Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


 Re: This needs attending to:

Today I browsed through a site http://www.freegrace.net and found some good resources as commentaries etc and read an article from which I was shocked and terrified from what I read. This man is giving Scriptures, and ignoring tens of others! I don't know what to say, could you imagine going to evangelize and saying, God loves you if you are elect, if not sorry, bad luck, you are created to suffer eternally into hell! And the excuse that you will evangelize because you don't know who is elected for me is nonsense! Why you will plead sinners to come to Christ? Why if your tears and prayers doesn't work and cannot change anything, why you should weep for lost souls? Maybe you should not? Are we robots? What is love?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is the article:

[b]DOES GOD REALLY LOVE EVERYONE IN THE WORLD?[/b]

Does God really love everyone in the world? Modern day religion says that he does. All men like to think that he does. But what does the Word of God say? Does God really love all people? This is what God says in Romans 9:13 - "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Language could not be more emphatically clear. God never loved Esau at all; but he always did love Jacob. Is it possible that there are other people in the world whom God does not love? Ask the men and women who perished in the flood if God loved them. Ask the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah if God loved them. Ask Korah, Ephraim, and Judas if God loved them. Go to the unnamed multitudes who suffer the wrath of God in hell and tell them, "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life!" That would be a strange kind of love that shows itself by the fires of infinite torment in hell. No. God does not love everyone in the world.

But, blessed be his name, there are [b]some[/b] men in this world whom God does love. Among the fallen mass of humanity, there are many Jacobs, an untold number of men and women upon whom the eternal God has set his heart. Concerning all who call upon Christ in faith, all who are saved by his grace, all who are drawn to him by the Holy Spirit, the Lord Jehovah says, "I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with loving kindness have I drawn thee" (Jer. 31:3). God's love for his own elect is special, particular and saving. The eternal God will not allow one of those whom he loves to perish in hell. He will save them everyone. It is written, "Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee" (Psalm 65:4).

This love of which I am speaking is revealed only in Christ. "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins" (I John 4:10). "Hereby, perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us" (I John 3:16). "In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him" (I John 4:9). If you are united to Christ by faith, God loves you, and your faith is the result of God's love. If you refuse to believe on Christ, you need not think that God loves you. "He that believeth not the Son shall hot see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36). But, if you trust Christ, and love Christ, it is because he first loved you. Our love for the Lord arises from and is caused by his love for us. "We love him because he first loved us" (I John 4:19).

Children of God, rejoice in and give thanks for the love of God. God's love for his own is without cause. He loved us freely. The love of God is without beginning. He loves us with an everlasting love. God's love is without change. He loves us perfectly. And the love of God for his own is without end. He will never cease his own to cherish. "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us!" May the love of God in Christ comfort and cheer your heart today.

Source: [b][url=http://www.freegrace.net/dfradio/dfrh006.htm]http://www.freegrace.net/dfradio/dfrh006.htm[/url][/b]

 2007/11/17 13:24Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Tears_of_joy wrote:
Today I browsed through a site http://www.freegrace.net and found some good resources as commentaries etc and read an article from which I was shocked and terrified from what I read. This man is giving Scriptures, and ignoring tens of others! I don't know what to say, could you imagine going to evangelize and saying, God loves you if you are elect, if not sorry, bad luck, you are created to suffer eternally into hell! And the excuse that you will evangelize because you don't know who is elected for me is nonsense! Why you will plead sinners to come to Christ? Why if your tears and prayers doesn't work and cannot change anything, why you should weep for lost souls? Maybe you should not? Are we robots? What is love?

Some one told me that there is always a chance that the one who we pray for to be save might be the "elect".

This means that our prayers to save the lost being answered are based on chance.

I [b]realy[/b] need my original post answered.

 2007/11/17 13:39Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Dear brothers and sisters,


Please forgive me in this short response. I try to avoid this topic in these forums. My concern is that in these discussions we will reduce the deep and sacred mysteries of God to simple proofs and arguments that [b]we use[/b] to support our ideas. This seems very wrong to me. And unholy.




I don't want to do that.




I do think there is something for me worth sharing here, that has influenced my own understanding of this issue. Perhaps in the end, every man should seek to be pursuaded in his own mind of these things, and allow that, seeing through a glass darkly, our vision is as yet not perfect. I do not know.




What I wanted to share was this: that we are, all, no better than Adam. None of us, on our own, or in ourselves, could rise above him that was our father.



I share that in considering all of this.


I draw upon this passage, which I think speaks the same:



"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchers of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets."



- Matthew chapter 23 verses 29-31





Wish you all well,


Chris


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/11/17 13:46Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Dear brothers and sisters,

I think too add here also, that justice, maybe divine justice especially, only demands what is right and true. It may not seem fair if we cannot pay what it demands, but isn't it justice still to demand it?


But also, mercy does not demand what is right and true and may not seem fair to the one who was wronged either.





Love to you,


Chris


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/11/17 13:58Profile









 Re: This needs attending to:


I wasn't planning to post this, as many of you may have read it in My Utmost for His Highest, but I also a (tho ChrisJD put it better) am concerned about the amount of energy and personal frustration which is exerted on this topic, likely because we are not beginning where most people would, to define basic terms [i]before[/i] engaging in discussion about how they interact with each other [u]in scripture[/u].


This is the entry for 28th October, entitled Justification by Faith. I believe it establishes the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world as the [i]raison d'etre[/i] of the operation of faith. Did Chambers express something almost inexpressible? [i]I think so.[/i]


[i]I am not saved by believing; I realize I am saved by believing. It is not repentance that saves me, repentance is the sign that I realize what God has done in Christ Jesus. The danger is to put the emphasis on the effect instead of on the cause. It is my obedience that puts me right with God, my consecration. Never! I am put right with God because prior to all, Christ died. When I turn to God and by belief accept what God reveals I can accept, instantly the stupendous Atonement of Jesus Christ rushes me into a right relationship with God; and by the supernatural miracle of God's grace I stand justified, not because I am sorry for my sin, not because I have repented, but because of what Jesus has done. The Spirit of God brings it with a breaking, all-over light, and I know, though I do not know how, that I am saved.

The salvation of God does not stand on human logic, it stands on the sacrificial Death of Jesus. We can be born again because of the Atonement of Our Lord. Sinful men and women can be changed into new creatures, not by their repentance or their belief, but by the marvellous work of God in Christ Jesus which is prior to all experience. The impregnable safety of justification and sanctification is God Himself. We have not to work out these things ourselves; they have been worked out by the Atonement. The supernatural becomes natural by the miracle of God; there is the realization of what Jesus Christ has already done - [b]"It is finished."[/b][/i]

 2007/11/17 14:09
Tears_of_joy
Member



Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


 Re:

Quote:
ChrisJD wrote:
My concern is that in these discussions we will [b]reduce the deep and sacred mysteries of God[/b] to simple proofs and arguments that we use to support our ideas.



This reminded me of:

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?


Thank you brother Chris.

 2007/11/17 14:17Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
ChrisJD wrote:
...justice, maybe divine justice especially, only demands what is right and true...

That which is is right and true, is not comanding that which is imposible just as my example prooves of a family that has a law that all members must take turns mowing the lawn.

 2007/11/17 14:41Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Logic,

"That which is is right and true, is not comanding that which is imposible..."




But what was commanded, first, to Adam?













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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/11/17 14:56Profile





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