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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA


[i]The following is taken from Albert Barnes' notes on the Bible, as it appears in e-sword. The entry is from Matthew 23:14.[/i]

[b]Mat 23:14 -[/b]

[b]Devour widows’ houses -[/b] The word “houses” is used here to denote “property” or possessions of any kind. You take away or get possession of the property of widows by improper arts and pretences. This was done in two ways:

1. They claimed a very exact knowledge of the law and a perfect observance of it. They pretended to extraordinary justice toward the poor, friendship for the distressed, and willingness to aid those who were in embarrassed circumstances. They thus induced “widows” and poor people to commit the management of their property to them as guardians and executors, and then took advantage of them and defrauded them.

2. They put on the appearance of great sanctity, and induced many conscientious but credulous women to give them much, under pretence of devoting it to religious purposes.

Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/5/2 17:20Profile

Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA


"What mean ye [i]that[/i] ye beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor? saith the Lord GOD of hosts."

- Isaiah 3:15(KJV)

Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/5/2 17:22Profile

 Re: 1 Cor 9:14

In the same way the Lord has given orders that those who preach the Gospel should be supported by those who accept it.
According to this verse believers(the ekklesia)ought to support the workers(missionaries)in the field who preach and work abroad evangelizing those who've not yet heard the Gospel.
The context of this verse is specifically treating of an apostle(sent one). Any who are called pastors,elders,bishops(synonomous terms)or the like are to be examples to the flock. They're to be self-supportive(providing for their own house as every head of household)rather than burdensome financially to others. We do not hire our brother to feed our family. The spiritual gift a man has from God ought to be freely given even as it has been freely received.The Gospel is without charge to those outside the family of God that they may be brought in and adopted as we all have been who now have God as our Father. The family supports the laborers and the harvesters that God's house may be full. Once adopted into the family they're fed with the sincere milk of the Word and instructed as dear children by their new family members. As earthly families care one for another without charge how much the more ought the family of God to do so. Hiring and firing is how the kingdoms of this world operate. Our children are not charged for instruction in righteousness nor are those in our extended family. Who has bewitched us! The rise of such certainly does not have its roots in the New Covenant. Oh how far we have fallen from the Father's love,the love of the family of heaven.
The Calf-Path
by Sam Walter Foss (1858-1911)
One day, through the primeval wood,
A calf walked home, as good calves should;
But made a trail all bent askew,
A crooked trail, as all calves do.

Since then three hundred years have fled,
And, I infer, the calf is dead.
But still he left behind his trail,
And thereby hangs my moral tale.

The trail was taken up next day
By a lone dog that passed that way;
And then a wise bellwether sheep
Pursued the trail o’er vale and steep,
And drew the flock behind him, too,
As good bellwethers always do.

And from that day, o’er hill and glade,
Through those old woods a path was made,
And many men wound in and out,
And dodged and turned and bent about,
And uttered words of righteous wrath
Because ’twas such a crooked path;
But still they followed — do not laugh —
The first migrations of that calf,
And through this winding wood-way stalked
Because he wobbled when he walked.

This forest path became a lane,
That bent, and turned, and turned again.
This crooked lane became a road,
Where many a poor horse with his load
Toiled on beneath the burning sun,
And traveled some three miles in one.
And thus a century and a half
They trod the footsteps of that calf.

The years passed on in swiftness fleet.
The road became a village street,
And this, before men were aware,
A city’s crowded thoroughfare,
And soon the central street was this
Of a renowned metropolis;
And men two centuries and a half
Trod in the footsteps of that calf.

Each day a hundred thousand rout
Followed that zigzag calf about,
And o’er his crooked journey went
The traffic of a continent.
A hundred thousand men were led
By one calf near three centuries dead.
They follow still his crooked way,
And lose one hundred years a day,
For thus such reverence is lent
To well-established precedent.

A moral lesson this might teach
Were I ordained and called to preach;
For men are prone to go it blind
Along the calf-paths of the mind,
And work away from sun to sun
To do what other men have done.
They follow in the beaten track,
And out and in, and forth and back,
And still their devious course pursue,
To keep the path that others do.

They keep the path a sacred groove,
Along which all their lives they move;
But how the wise old wood-gods laugh,
Who saw the first primeval calf!
Ah, many things this tale might teach —
But I am not ordained to preach.

 2008/5/3 0:47

 Re: O.T. Law of Tithing vs. N.T Love of Giving

All true christians are pro-giving, but that giving must be BIBLICAL giving – not manipulative in any way shape or form. The tithe (which means tenth) is a biblical precept that goes back to the time of the Levitical priesthood. The Levites (God's chosen
priests of the line of Levi) were not given an
inheritance like the other eleven tribes of Israel. Because they were contracted to serve God in the temple and perform the sacrifices for themselves and the other eleven tribes – the Levites were banned from ownership of property. In order to feed, clothe, and support this group of people and their families (1/12th of all of Israel) God instituted the tithe so that each of the other eleven tribes would support the
Levites from their own increase. When Christ came (as the GREAT High Priest) and gave his life as a ONE TIME sacrifice for all the sins of His people(past, present and future), he ended the sacrificial system by which,in prior times, sin was only temporarily washed from those in Israel. When Jesus prophesied that the temple
would be destroyed (and subsequently all the records of the Levitical line were too) and the people would be scattered (in 70 A.D.), he was demonstrating the END of the Levitical system of sacrifice. Due to the one-time sacrifice made by THE HIGH PRIEST, a sacrifice made for all believers for all time, the Levitical priesthood was no longer necessary. The “tithe” as a mandated minimum of giving is FINISHED.

“The New Covenant concept of giving"
In the first century, the believers sold EVERYTHING THEY HAD!!! After Pentecost, when 3000 new believers came to Christ, the new, young sect decided to stay in Jerusalem. Everyone sold all their posessions and took
care of the needy. They gave freely unto the disciples who distributed the gifts to the widows and the orphans and those who needed a place to stay. They ALL WORKED and gave as the Lord directed so as to provide for the needs of the people. The “pastors” of corporate institutionalized religion preach a twisted
message that implies that believers are still under the Levitical system and are compelled to tithe to support "the ministry", whatever they may happen to call the work of God. Many "churches" compel members to sign OATHS (which are strictly forbidden to believers) to themselves and the church that they will
faithfully tithe to the organization. In many
"churches" you will be asked to sign a form when you join that allows the "church" to DIRECTLY WITHDRAW your tithe from your checking account!

Why is the "church" perpetuating the Levitical myth,while not subscribing to it in its entirety? If your pastor wants to subject you to Levitical tithing, why do you not require that he sell everything he has and stay at the temple to give sacrifice unto the Lord?
The Levitical priest was FORBIDDEN from owning ANY property. Does your pastor own property? A car? A home?

The New Covenant standard of giving was far higher than the Levitical standard. The New Covenant giver was compelled to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit and give honestly and joyfully as directed. The New Covenant giver was compelled to be obedient to God without withholding of his increase. This New Covenant
giver was to give discreetly without desire for
recompense , and he was to give directly where he
uncovered a need.

The New Covenant calls the christian to a higher
standard. It allowed for the needs of the widow and the orphan and the needy to be met WITHOUT the opening for manipulation by corporate organizations bent on self-preservation. The "churches" spend MILLIONS of tithe-dollars to preach a reductionist gospel to the
third world, while denying the fact that the TRUE
gospel is this - that we serve the best interests of the brethren, that we break the bonds of the afflicted, that we set men and women at Liberty, and that we let the slaves go free.

The TRUE gospel would have us meeting the needs of the people in our neighborhoods while still making disciples of men. The reductionist Gospel preaches that we can walk or drive past the needs of the brethren on our street or at work because we have given at "church". The reductionist gospel is the gospel of the paid preachers(hirelings) who have taken onto themselves the job of truth filters so as to keep
the truth from the sheep.

Although we should all give freely where there is a need, there is no place where the Bible authorizes a STAY AT HOME preacher to receive a salary. Although we should all “communicate” to those who teach in the word and who work among us – a man who is able to stay at home and work, should work so that burdens are not placed upon the brethren. All giving should be according to the will of God through the Holy Spirit and not out of compulsion.

Giving “without regard to consequence” does not mean that we should only give what we have “budgeted” or that giving should not hinder our standard of living. The New Testament principle of giving was that we give all of ourselves, 100%, to the Body of Christ for
whatever purposes that God has for our lives. That means that our livelihood should be towards the work of God, and NOT towards the building of assets and comfort for ourselves.

May we all be encouraged to stand firm in the faith of Jesus Christ, not bowing the knee to ecclesiastical Caesars and manipulators. We will not be sold again into the bondage of the Pharisees, or into the emotional “knowledge” of the Gnostics. We have been set free and we are free indeed. Purchased with a price.

Having been declared free men, we serve as bondslaves to one another and to our Master, that our lives may be a living epistle to all those who seek the Truth in this present age. (Unknown)

“But I have all, and abound: I am full.”

The following link is to an online book which I believe brings great clarity to understanding what is required of us as christians regarding giving. It is brief and easy reading.

 2008/5/3 0:59

Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re: Those that rob widows


How did we get too this point? Is it too late for us Christians in America to turn around? Do we still retain the discernment to separate the wolves from the flock?

We all have been witness to the vulgar displays by more and more pastors who’s strength comes from wealth and privilege and not from God.

Their sense of shame has been dulled so that they quote Holy Scriptures out of context in an attempt to justify their actions.

Their sense of shame should be a loathsome millstone dragging them down to the pit.



 2008/5/3 6:52Profile

Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7504


Charitable giving in the USA...big subject...

As a volunteer at a CPC, we were expected to share clothing, diapers and whatever it is that our clients needed. We seldom were ever short of supplies because of the generosity of surrounding churches, individuals. So, we had plenty. And I was in a position to give a lot away. can one [i]help[/i] without fostering dependency in the person? There were people who learned to know us workers by name and knew who to ask...until they wised up. They became skilled manipulators. Aggravatin'! annoying! frustrating! To learn discernment in the giving of goods to the 'poor' requires Holy Spirit discernment. If you want to pray for anyone, pray for those who job is to dispense material goods because they need it!

Oh, the subject was about widows...hope I did not distract too far from the original intent of this thread...


Sandra Miller

 2008/5/3 14:23Profile



rowdy2 wrote:

How did we get too this point? Is it too late for us Christians in America to turn around? Do we still retain the discernment to separate the wolves from the flock?

We all have been witness to the vulgar displays by more and more pastors who’s strength comes from wealth and privilege and not from God.

Their sense of shame has been dulled so that they quote Holy Scriptures out of context in an attempt to justify their actions.

Their sense of shame should be a loathsome millstone dragging them down to the pit.



1 Tim 5:3-5

3 Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need. 4 But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God.

James 1:26-2:1
27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Eccl 12:13 - Song 1:1

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Everything centers around the cross. Christ must have supremacy in everything. The NKJV and the KJV says in all things as below. If one missed the cross, did not confess with the heart, but only made confession with the mouth only, one has not received the New Covenant of promise and does not have HIS laws written in their heart.

Col 1:18
18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

John 19:30
30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Heb 8:9-9:1
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.[b/]
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord;[b] I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

In the passage directly below we see we are commanded to give that and in doing so the preacher earns his living from preaching the gospel. Not from visiting the sick as most church members require because that is the deacons responsibility so the Pastor can devote his time to the ministry of the word. The church structure is laid out in the epistles that so many want to disregard. I would ask exactly where does the money come from to pay the preacher for preaching the gospel and carrying out the great commission in travel expense and all other expenses. We all know being a christian saved by grace does not exempt us from giving out of a thankful heart, the thankful heart making the requirement, not the law, but the heart to give in every area, including our finances. For what the law could could do, grace did abound.

1st Cor 16:2
But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. 13 Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

Now tithing or not tithing is actually not the question, the question is about where is the heart. If we believe HE has the power to change our mortal body and take us to heaven and also through HIM we can do all things through Christ who strengthen us. If our heart has been changed and HIS Spirit lives in us, and we are a new creation. Why would we not want to give in cheerfulness to HIS church for the assistance in spreading of the gospel? Is it the church body, the foot, the arm, the leg, the whole body working together. Does the hand say to the foot, we don't need you. The body of Christ. If the preacher and the bills get paid, where does the money coming from? How was the church set up from the scripture? Does God not have power now to provide for his people or must they retsain all they earn in order to make it financially? Does HE have the power to control our situation in everything for HIS purpose? Does He control the air we breath? This is the confidence we have right? Is confidence not faith? Do we have evidence that Paul and the early church did it this way? Have we nullify the words that Paul wrote when he set up the church as he was given the words by the Holy Spirit?

Luke 6:45-46
45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

What is alms?
Luke 12:33-38
33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

God does not need the money HE has intrusted and gave us each the abiltiyt to earn money for ourselves and for others and to carry out HIS purpose. Could it be He just desires to see us demostrate our love and trust in and to HIM in our giving. God is the owner of the cattle of a thousand hills and also owns the hills that the cattle are grazing on also. God is not in need of our money or HIS money He has enables us to make, but desires that HIS Spirit live our heart and that it be manifested in obedient trust to HIM. What we say in our actions reveals if what we say with our mouth is really and truly from the heart. It also reveals it to our own hearts as well others. God already knows our heart. That subject is what James is referring to when HE said faith without works is dead. He wasn't talking about our works justifying us, but rather the last part of the passage in EPH 8 and 9 but verse 10 of the passage that many times is used by many excuse them from doing absolutely nothing for HIS CHURCH and HIS PURPOSE as a Christian.

James 2:17-18
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesusunto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Is HE a rewarder of those who dilgently seek HIM? He says He is. I believe He is, I have experienced that He is, not as some preach the prosperity gospel, in that He will enable us to win the lottery or that will someone will give us a JETLINER, if we but only have enough faith and give. He could if it was in and for HIS Plans and purposes he could if He wanted to. If we gave for that reason, it would be wrong to give anything with the wrong motive. God is our Jehovah Jireh, being our provider means for all our needs, not our wants.
I say HE is our provider not only to forgive sins but in everything that we are and if we react to what we have in our heart as HE plainly instructed to in His Word, we are to be content in whatever situation He has placed us in.

One more passage in closing. This should say it all.[color]

Phil 4:15-23
15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.
16 For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity.
17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.
18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.
19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.
20 Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
21 Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you.
22 All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar's household.
23 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

On more and then I'm through, but there are many others passages if one wants to search His Word find them.

1 Cor 16:1-2
16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

If I might make add one more point and I'm through. Seeing these passages and reading them to be truth, if I might ask, how can one arrive at the lie, that christian service to the local church is not neccesary or pleasing to Lord and and that HE/SHE, if they are physically able, and that using the gift or gifts given to them by HIS grace and offering that gift in service and giving in the local church is not neccesary and/or tithing is not scriptural or pleasing to the Lord. How can you arrive at that?

2 Cor 9:7-8
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

As for the mega-churches and the Joel Olstens with the big incomes. If you will notice you can plainly see Joel hardly ever uses any scripture in his sermon! He is the poster boy for ear tickling. That is not a biblical church. We can see from scripture that when a church reaches a number in membership level, more people than the Pastor, Elders and deacons can minister to and supply the needs of, the church should plant another chruch or allow God to start another church body. Have another Pastor to shepherd the new flock, appoint elders, deacons and so on. Just like Paul did it. Not build up a big pot of money for the elaborate sanctuary and so forth. Not buy a jet like Jesse Duplantas and Kenneth Copeland. As Ccchhhrrriiiss said in a thread if Benny Hinn wants to have a healiing service, he needs to got the hospital to the ICU unit. If some want to have a bring the dead to life they need to go to the morgue. All who call themselves a gosple organizations, regardless if they call themselves a church are not, if they are acting under the pretense gathering money and using the money to spread the gospel and they collect money from their members, donations or whatever, They should voluntarily file a report to the members and the givers monthly. They should also have an announced board from among their members that direct what the funds go toward and how much. One should never give to those who are not accountable to the members and to God. They should be transparent if they have nothing to hide and lay their check register on the table for all to see. If they do not do this they are hiding something. I may be stepping on some toes here but I think this is biblical.
I expect this thread to slid back behind the mayonaise very quickly of the home page. It could possibly even be from lack of rebuttal.

 2008/5/3 15:40

Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA


Hi everyone.

I noticed this and it seems to relate to some of the things wisevigin had mentioned,

"And if a Levite come from any of thy gates out of all Israel, where he sojourned, and come with all the desire of his mind unto the place which the LORD shall choose; Then he shall minister in the name of the LORD his God, as all his brethren the Levites [i]do[/i], which stand there before the LORD. They shall have like portions to eat, beside that which cometh of the sale of his patrimony."

- Deuteronomy 18:6-8

The follwoing is the entry from Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible from this passage, in e-sword,

[b]Deu 18:6-8 -[/b]

These verses presuppose that part of the Levites only will be in residence and officiating at the place of the sanctuary, the others of course dwelling at their own homes in the Levitical cities, or “sojourning” elsewhere; compare the marginal references. But if any Levite out of love for the service of the sanctuary chose to resort to it when he might reside in his own home, he was to have his share in the maintenance which was provided for those ministering in the order of their course.

Beside that which cometh of the sale of his patrimony -[/b]

The Levites had indeed “no part nor inheritance with Israel,” but they might individually possess property, and in fact often did so (compare 1Ki_2:26; Jer_32:7; Act_4:36). The Levite who desired to settle at the place of the sanctuary would probably sell his patrimony when quitting his former home. The text directs that he should, notwithstanding any such private resources, duly enjoy his share of the perquisites provided for the ministers at the sanctuary, and as he was “waiting at the altar” should be “partaker with the altar” 1Co_9:13.

[i]end of entry[/i]

"The Levite who desired to settle at the place of the sanctuary would probably sell his patrimony when quitting his former home."

Compare with Acts 4:36-37.


Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/5/3 17:43Profile

Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA


Reply ginnyrose

ginnyrose wrote.
“They became skilled manipulators. Aggravatin'! annoying! frustrating! To learn discernment in the giving of goods to the 'poor' requires Holy Spirit discernment. If you want to pray for anyone, pray for those who job is to dispense material goods because they need it!” End quote

Amen! Amen! We should pray for and support all volunteers in the great work they do. My wife does the same kind of work as you once a week as a volunteer. The elite insulate themselves from such unseemly displays so we who seek not our own interest or wealth must shoulder the responsibility.

What have we that was not given to us? Charging for doing service to God. Shame!Shame!Shame!

We see young families struggling to support wealthy old men who will never spend all the money they have. Shame!Shame!Shame!

Young people please do not let someone enslave you into pledging anything to them. Feed and cloth the poor in your community as a Christian, that your Father in Heaven receive the glory. Not some institution who skims off the top like a casino.



 2008/5/4 7:42Profile

Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7504


Feed and cloth the poor in your community as a Christian,

Eddie, this question torments me: who are the poor in my community? They all receive a government check - at least those that [i]think[/i] they are poor. But too many of them are there because of sin: fornication, sloth. They think the rest of us who work our tails off owe them a living while they sit at home and do nothing or are 'sleeping around'.

Yes, this command haunts me...however, I have begun to ask the LORD to bring people my way who I may bless by sharing whatever I have. And it happens. But it is nothing big or worthy of mention, to speak of. Maybe we are too haunted by "big" and feel like something as insignificant as a glass of water is meaningless in the scheme of life, but it really is not when you are thirsty.

My thoughts,

Sandra Miller

 2008/5/4 18:14Profile

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