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andrewjames
Member



Joined: 2003/8/13
Posts: 29
vermont

 Ravenhill hanging out with "false prophets"?

Hello All,
i just wanted to take a wuick opportunity to point out that Brother Ravenhill did speak at a holiness confrence with the so called False Prophets of kansas city.
in either 1988 or 1991 Leonard Ravenhill spoke at a holiness confrence put on by the Vineyard church, the people there were, (john paul jackson, paul cain, john wimber, mike bickle, ect)
now one thought posed to me was that Leonard Ravenhill was that even jesus did not avoid spending time with the pharisees in their synagogs.
My response back was how can we know what Mr Ravenhills relationships with those people were. On the tapes i have from that confrence it would seem that Mr ravenhill has spent time with for sure John Wimber(calls him friend) and speaks also of mike bickle.
i thought i would just throw this out there for discussion, since i told someone that i would.


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andrew james

 2004/5/26 14:53Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re: Ravenhill hanging out with "false prophets"?

Quote:

just wanted to take a wuick opportunity to point out that Brother Ravenhill did speak at a holiness confrence with the so called False Prophets of kansas city.



If anybody ever asked me to come preach at any of their churches, I would. No matter what denomination. No matter if they were Christians or not. Wherever somebody is asked to proclaim the gospel, I think it is usually wise to do so.

Quote:

My response back was how can we know what Mr Ravenhills relationships with those people were. On the tapes i have from that confrence it would seem that Mr ravenhill has spent time with for sure John Wimber(calls him friend) and speaks also of mike bickle.



It'd be interesting to hear the tapes. I wonder though what his personal relationship with these individuals were. It would personally sadden me though if Ravenhill were friends of Wimber or Bickle, as I personally believe these men are false prophets.


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Jimmy H

 2004/5/26 15:11Profile
KeithLaMothe
Member



Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354


 Re: Ravenhill hanging out with "false prophets"?

Ravenhill did do/say some strange things in his later years, I'd have to know more about the situation to tell if he was rightly or wrongly involving himself with the people in question.

As for a point you brought up somewhere else, about the focus of this website being against certain "false prophets" and their ministries; a lot of the teaching is against that, particularly from Art Katz and David Wilkerson. However, much of it is simply on Biblical repentance and revival (listen to some of A.W. Tozer, T. Austin Sparks, Paris Reidhead, etc).

Personally I don't pay a lot of attention to the anti-"prosperity gospel" stuff because I've never agreed with it nor understood why anyone would fall for it.

However, I believe much of the Pentecostal/Charismatic church has been won over by the world, pursuing worldly goals with worldly methods for worldly reasons. I don't have anything against them specifically (though most of them have fallen from a Holiness stance and thus are in particularly bad shape) since most movements in this country have gone the same way, but we should be aware of the problems at least to not fall into them ourselves.

 2004/5/26 15:11Profile
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re: preaching everywhere

Quote:
If anybody ever asked me to come preach at any of their churches, I would. No matter what denomination. No matter if they were Christians or not. Wherever somebody is asked to proclaim the gospel, I think it is usually wise to do so.



I am inspired by you saying this, Jimmy. This would be a hard thing for me - but i know it is true and necessary. I have such a hard time with "in name-only christians" and tend to judge and write them off. yet I am very open and accepting to non- believers. Glad you reminded me of this.

in Him, chanin


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Chanin

 2004/5/26 15:31Profile
andrewjames
Member



Joined: 2003/8/13
Posts: 29
vermont

 Important to mention

Hello All again,
It is important for me to mention that I do not believe it is wrong to speak about such things, as false prophets, or anyone group being off-base.
It just seems to me that we can dwell on things for too long a time.
An example I will share is from my own life, that i have shared before. In leaving the IC(institutional church) the group I was in tended to focus on the failings of the IC, at first I agree it was important for us to discuss why we were doing this and what we saw that was not God. But i do believe that we stayed there too long and stepped away from life, we finally got to the place where we realized that our focus was not Jesus it was the failings of the IC.
There is no life in that we discovered that and it pushed us back to wanting to focus more on Christ than on the crap that comes from humans. Which everymove of God has expierinced.
Blessings all hoping that The Holy Spirit reveals more of Christ in you daily:)
Andy


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andrew james

 2004/5/26 16:40Profile
Gideons
Member



Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 474
Virginia

 Re: Paul Cain

I have a book written in part by Paul Cain and have some tapes from him as well and I believe he's a man of God. Although he has certainly has done some foolish things in his life, I believe he is a man of God. I've certainly done some very foolish things myself, much more than he.

We certainly need discernment in these days. Much of the "prophetic" ministry is a bit out of control in my view but I'm not acquainted enough with Mike Bickle, John Wimber, and some of the other folks to comment.

A true prophetic word always brings glory to God and exalts Christ. A false prophetic word edifies the flesh and exalts self. This is a synposis of how Wigglesworth defined the two.

As Paul Cain said in one of the tapes I have, there is no new truth, only fresh revelation of existing truth.

Just my two cents worth.


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Ed Pugh

 2004/5/26 17:23Profile
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

A good article dealing with Paul Cain can be found on this link:

http://letusreason.org/Latrain5.htm

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2004/5/26 17:36Profile
Gideons
Member



Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 474
Virginia

 Re: Thanks Jeremy

I have read much of what was shown on that link and if true, it's sadly off the mark. The book I read was written by R.T. Kendall, former minister of Westminister Church in England and an excellent author. He had many misgivings about Paul Cain as well until they met.

If someone articulates something contrary to scripture, it's obviously wrong but don't we all see through the glass darkly? Where does one draw the line between a "false prophet" and a prophet, who was wrong? My grandmother was a very Godly woman, but she was plain wrong on much of their theology. Would that make her a heretic?

I don't think so, but I could be mistaken. I hope I haven't veered too far off the topic. When I came back to the Lord, I quickly went through the WOF and prosperity doctrines and then I read some stuff by Jack Deere, Cindy Jacobs, Peter Wagner, & others and quickly moved on from there to those who seek Christ above all else.

I certainly need more discernment and Godly wisdom.


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Ed Pugh

 2004/5/26 18:50Profile
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

Gideons,

Quote:
If someone articulates something contrary to scripture, it's obviously wrong but don't we all see through the glass darkly?



You cited 1Cor 13:12 where Paul is in the middle of his treatment of the abuses taking place in the Corinthian Church. Paul is not saying that we will be in error from time to time, but that our understanding, while it may be correct, will grow by bits and pieces until it is complete. This is not to say that we won't make mistakes. Here is how Stanley Horton treats this passage:

Quote:
As a further illustration, Paul compares our present understanding and knowledge to the indirect image in a mirror(mirrors in those days were made of polished bronze). But when Jesus comes, the perfect state will be unveiled: We shall see no longer indirectly, but face to face. Now there are many things that perplex us. We are able to claim ony part of what God has for us. But the day is coming when "we shall see him as he is"(1John 3:2). Then we shall no longer need what is now "in part. We do know God now, but spiritual gifts only reveal bits and pieces.



In other words, seeing through a glass darkly, doesn't mean that we will see wrongly, but that we will see only parts of the big picture so to speak. So, what we are given to understand, can be understood rightly, just not comprehensivly.

Here are some links to some articles that will help you out:

[url=http://www.apologeticsindex.org/d01.html]A Biblical Guide To Orthodoxy And Heresy[/url] This article does an excellent treatment of this issue and is worth reading all the way through(It's a long one).

[url=http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c06.html]Paul Cain[/url] This article is very concise, but it offers many worthwhile links that provide some very usefull background information on Paul Cain.

[url=http://watch.pair.com/rain.html]THE LATTER RAIN REVIVAL[/url] What I have read of this so far has been very good.

Here is a small quote:
Quote:
Are you having difficulty discerning or receiving this "new revelation"? Then perhaps you have been interpreting your Bible in the "old way" -- comparing Scripture with Scripture, studying diligently to account for every jot and tittle and being careful to rightly divide the Word of truth. If this describes you, then you belong to the "Old Generation" which will not enter in to "possess the land" in the Latter Rain Revival. You may even be a member of a denominational church with its dogmatic confession of faith and statement of doctrine. These legalistic forms will be relics of the past in the up and coming "Postdenominational Church." Paul Cain advises that you "dump all that carnal stuff" (doctrine) and listen to what the "spirit" is saying to the churches through the Latter Rain Prophets and Apostles, who are dispensing many "new, sacred truths."

Now, back to your Bible study. In your Bible you will want to change the book of "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" to "The Manifestation of the Sons of God." That’s right, we are not to be looking for the "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him." Nope. That would be an "escapist mentality" to be repented of at once if we would be Overcomers. Instead, we should be looking forward to the glorification of the Corporate Church, which will become perfect and immortal here on earth before the Second Coming. In fact, as Jesus comes "spiritually and invisibly" to His Church, He will actually "incarnate" the Corporate Body and reveal Himself to the world through miraculous signs and wonders performed by the "Manifest Sons of God."



I hope you find these usefull. By-the-way, I used to be caught up in all of the trappins of the WOF, and all it's associations.

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2004/5/26 22:49Profile
smichael
Member



Joined: 2004/5/23
Posts: 21


 Re: Corinthians

Remember the mirror he is talking about is polished brass or copper. It had distortions and was not at all like our mirrors today. We still have to contend with the darkness in our own soul. That is why it is not clear what the God is trying to implement. It goes back to putting ourselves on the alter. Peice by peice God kills the old and births the new soul until we are in His image.

Regarding Cain:
Worst case he is wanting to control his members in a christian-like cult.
Best case he is an apostle or prophet who is errent and impatient for people to renew their minds. Either one is wrong and deadly.

smichael

 2004/5/27 0:30Profile





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