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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : Show me Your Glory - Carrol

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Corneliu
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Joined: 2004/1/6
Posts: 61


 Re:

I thank God for vigilant watchmen that are like Paul confronting Peter for the good of the whole body of Christ. I too was troubled in my spirit by this message in which there is no place for the man of God showing the anger of God like it is exemplified in both, The Old and The New Testament (remember Stefan angry words at the end of his preaching, and as it was alredy mentioned - the anger of our Lord Jesus himself - under the new covenant). But I did not write on this board, instead I wrote to a brother from here SI asking for an explenation or confirmation before it is posted on here, but I didn't get any response, so I will put my original feilings as a quote:

Quote:
I did not want to write this on the board because it is negative and I would like to be wrong and change my mind...

I have listened to Carter Conlon's "Beware Of The Angry Watchmen" and I was very heavy and concerned about what he meant and/or about what other people might get out of it. But I did give it the benefit of the doubt...

But after I've listened to William Carrol's "Show me the glory" (evening sermon at TSC) I was very troubled. The outline goes like this: Israel sinned while Moses was receiving the Law and upon his return he gets very angry and "wins" a few people on his side and kills thousands of people that otherwise might have repented.Then he realized his mistake -"misrepresenting God" and asks of Him to show His Glory.

I do believe that a godly man of God will represent God's love, but also he will represent God's wrath (my understanding).

1. If Moses misrepresented God, by being angry and/or killing, than how come God never rebukes him for this incident. The only rebuke was when Moses hit the rock twice and his anger was personal ("how much longer do I have to...").

2. If Moses misrepresented God, than he was a false prophet and a liar because he said in
Exo 32:27 "And he said to them, "Thus says the LORD God of Israel: ˜Let every man put his sword on his side, and go in and out from entrance to entrance throughout the camp, and let every man kill his brother, every man his companion, and every man his neighbor."" This is not what Moses wanted out of anger, but the command of the Lord. How does William Carrol interprets this verse: if he doesn't make Moses a liar, than his whole sermon/argument falls to the ground...

3. If Elijah has to come and he brings fire or other bad things or another "angry" prophet("because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth." Rev 11:10) will they also be misrepresenting God's character???

I like TSC, but I have the feeling that they grow seeker friendly as time goes by...
I hope I'm wrong and that sermon was just an aberration from the normal, but I still can't believe they made Moses look like a liar. Actually he never cited that verse that puts all the action on God, so people that don't read their Bible will never know...

If you can, please send a response. I still hope there is a good explanation and I was overreacting.

Thanks and God bless you.

P.S. The revival Conference was a point of deeper relationship with God, and better understanding of His will and ways. I totaly needed this light from Him in this more and more grey world...



I hope nobody gets "angry" that some of us are more vigilent than others and it might appear as lack of love...

Your brother in Christ,
Cornelius Dragos


_________________
Cornelius

 2007/11/14 8:58Profile









 Re: Show me Your glory - Carrol


Diane said

Quote:
Since we find no hint to justify of Moses’ anger when he reacted so strongly...

I believe Moses had come from a prolonged time in the presence of God, receiving His laws. He has seen the slavery and idolatry in Egypt first hand, and understood what it did to people. His encounter with the burning bush had taught him something about holiness, and the plagues which God wrought on Egypt had taught him something about just how serious God was in His intention to release His people from their bondage. When you say 'we find no hint', I think you may have your nose too close to the text and have not given the narrative enough consideration, as if you were there, hearing the weeping as people discovered their firstborns dead in their beds.

In the overall history of the Hebrews, Moses was the first non-patriarch to lead them, as God's representative. The people had heard the law announced, (Exo 20). Nothing had been written down at that stage but they knew exactly what they were doing when they asked Aaron to make the golden calf. As he shared their history - the first son of a slave family, who had never lived in a palace, or seen a burning bush - he also had an idolatrous heart - and here was a taste of personal power at last (as Moses' brother). (Perhaps this is a function of poverty, which we do not acknowledge properly?) There is another difference here, between Moses and the rest, namely that he had been vexed for his people's bondage, and although he tried to deal with it in his own strength, his heart was in the right place - to care for his people as a shepherd - and this is what God had used so far.

So, I believe Moses was acting in his prophetic role to communicate God's mind to the people when [i]he[/i] was angry at their idolatry. I don't think it was only his natural anger... there was righteous anger as well. And this is what was wrong with Carrol's implication that Moses should not have been [i]so[/i] angry... although under the New Covenant there [u]is no place[/u] for this kind of anger. Killing each other literally is not how God deals with sin anymore. But at the time, God was judging idolatry for the first time in a way that history would never forget. The laws which Moses later presented to the people, embodied exactly the same kind of punishments, and because they were all related to each other, these punishments [i]had to be[/i] enacted by brethren against brethren.

Jesus brought in a completely different mindset for the treatment of 'sinners' by their brethren, which was unheard of under the Old Covenant. This is why the Pharisees were so incensed that He claimed to be [i]able[/i] to forgive sin, [i]and[/i] He told His followers to become forgivers. :-o They said '[i]only God[/i] can forgive sin' because that was the way the Old Covenant worked through the system of sacrifices.

Diane, I know we are looking at the same events through very different eyes... I feel we have to see the Old Testament as a real record of God's revelation of His heart and mind to mankind, and this particular part of that revelation, is about His wrath over idolatry (in particular), of which the people had been informed, clearly (in Exo 20) as the first of God's requirements. They knew this was the God of their forefathers, who had given them this exceptional status amongst all the peoples of the earth. It is a commentary on the effect of idolatry, that they preferred other gods, which inflame carnal desires.

Quote:
... we cannot assume that we are free to do that

Do you mean, we cannot assume we are free to 'justify' Moses' anger, or, we cannot assume we are free to get as angry as Moses' was?

 2007/11/14 9:47









 Re: Show me Your glory - Carrol


Diane also said

Quote:
Whether Moses heard from God as he claimed, of course, is the question.

Putting what Carrol did into these terms, is, I feel, out of bounds. I didn't hear Carrol actually say he didn't believe the scripture, and we are on very shakey ground if [u]we[/u] are going to question whether a prophet like Moses had heard from God or not. :-?

What Moses put the people through, seeing he gave them a chance to move over to God's side [u]before[/u] he ordered the destruction of those who did not choose God's side, shows that [u]he did exercise mercy before judgement[/u], which is God-like.

What Carrol was addressing, in this New Covenant era, is the partiality which often goes hand-in-hand with the Old Covenant mindset of a watchman who might be too easily stirred to anger and who too often minster judgement through their unfair treatment of sheep, all for reasons which have no place in real Christianity.


Perhaps to appreciate this sermon, one has to have been a damaged sheep. I was blessed by the amount of condemnation of angry shepherds that Carrol was prepared to declare, knowing he was putting his mouth where his heart is, and that there would be comeback. If he has spoken out of turn under God, I have [u]no doubt[/u] that he would be the first to acknowledge it [i]to God[/i].

To me, the most important thing is that this sermon connected those present with fresh opportunity to move on with God [u]in reality[/u].


To answer PreachParsly's question, I believe there is a difference between natural anger and righteous indignation, which is open to us (under the New Covenant) to discern in ourselves and others. Righteous anger - the spiritual truth - can minister healing. I've experienced that a couple of times. I don't know how we can know if this was different for the Old Testament saints, but certainly we see that [i]God[/i] knew the difference in Moses' heart, and that's a point we also must take on board for ourselvs.

 2007/11/14 9:52
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
Killing each other literally is not how God deals with sin anymore.



I'm not trying to really dispute this, because I understand what you meant. I just wanted to point out that it seems when a covenant begins, then someone sins, death happens (Ananias and Sapphira). Maybe God does this so "great fear [will come]upon all the church" and people take God seriously.

Regardless of what someone says, God was going to destroy those people if it wasn't for Moses. Would it have been better for Moses to have just embraced them?

EDIT: Actually, those people were destroyed anyways. God said so, unless I am understanding the below verse wrong. This should be proof enough that Moses wasn't speaking falsely.

Exd 32:31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
Exd 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Exd 32:33 [b]And the LORD said unto Moses, [u]Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.[/u][/b]


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Josh Parsley

 2007/11/14 10:05Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
he ordered the destruction of those who did not choose God's side, shows that he did exercise mercy before judgement, which is God-like.


Thanks sis… this point makes an eternal difference! You flesh out the account with a lot of good points and I agree. Still, regardless of how one may interpret Moses’ response, swift judgment was needed in order to preserve the newly formed nation and instil a fear of God. Even though they had crossed the Red Sea, they still had Egypt in their hearts.

I believe we will be seeing (and already have) swift judgment on our prosperity churches– not by a “Moses” handing out swords as much as by God letting the people experience the horrifying consequences of their false loyalties. Time will tell if I am correct.

Quote:
Do you mean, we cannot assume we are free to 'justify' Moses' anger, or, we cannot assume we are free to get as angry as Moses' was?


The latter is what I had in mind: We are not free to use Moses’ example (or even Jesus’) to justify our anger responses. (though anger in itself is not wrong!) It’s too easy to label our sustained anger as “righteous anger” without letting the Lord examine our hearts first.


Quote:
seeker friendly

Cornelius, I wonder if by this idiom you are referring to the pervasive trend I would label: non-seeker friendly. That certainly does not seem to be the spirit of Carrols’s message. He is referring to the people who are coming out of those environments and are SEEKING to return to the Lord, but are being intercepted by voices of condemnation and works-oriented demands. In other words those preachers (or voices) are actually PREVENTING the seeker from experiencing the mercy of the Lord - an antichrist spirit.


Quote:
some of us are more vigilent than others


Praise God for all you who are more vigilant than others of us here! However, I insert a caution: While we are occupied over a perceive flaw, we may be missing the “party with the fatted calf”. We can’t forget that the Jewish scholars were very vigilant.. only they kept on missing the BIG events - ie what GOD was doing!


Diane


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Diane

 2007/11/14 10:23Profile
broclint
Member



Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re: Re Corneliu’s quote:

quote: I like TSC, but I have the feeling that they grow seeker friendly as time goes by...
I hope I'm wrong and that sermon was just an aberration from the normal, but I still can't believe they made Moses look like a liar. (I agree)

And the quote: whether Moses heard from God as he claimed...

Sorry but the quote above is hard to fathom for me in view of the position Moses has in the economy of God's plan for all of us... how could there be a question of whether Moses heard from God?

I have posted some objections to the earlier sermon on that same day that were “shot down” in a not too friendly manner, especially in view of the fact that it was my very first post on SI, but I did not think it prudent to respond since the implication was that I had to have been one of the “angry watchmen’” to have responded negatively to the message…. Be that as it may, the major objection in both cases (the morning and the evening message) was the loose treatment of the inerrant Word of God. And my objection was because of the fact that it was so apparently in striking contrast to the whole spirit of the Revival Conference. To take Paul’s letter to Timothy regarding “forbidding of marriage” as angry watchmen forbidding the return of the bride of Christ is a stretch to say the least. And to take the anger of Moses over the idolatry of the Children of Israel after he had just spent 40 days in the very presence of God as “holding the law over their heads” when it is the prayer of this man of God (if not then blot my name out) that spared them from being totally replaced by descendants of Moses (which by the way would have still been a nation that fulfilled God’s covenant with Jacob) is just taking far too much liberty with the texts.

And by the way, as far as “old” versus “new”: Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh ….“in the beginning was the Word”. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. To try to make some sort of schizophrenic God who was mean in the Old but learned better in the New is a horrible misrepresentation of God. (no accusation here, but just an inference from what seems to be the logical implications of some of the arguments) There may not be the judgments on the spot in the New that we find so often in the Old, (God has appointed a day) with the exceptions of Ananias and Saphira and a few more, but that does not mean at all that God has changed his mind regarding the Uzzah’s that take it upon themselves to tamper with holy things, nor does it negate the Word of God that clearly states
Psalms 7:11 - 12 (NASB) 11 God is a righteous judge, And a God who has indignation every day. 12 If a man does not repent, He will sharpen His sword; He has bent His bow and made it ready.

It is amazing to me that after centuries of revivals, the very revivals that we are seeking here on SI and the thousands upon thousands of messages by those who did not just talk about revival but saw the thousands of souls brought into the kingdom of Christ, that so many have learned a ‘better way’ . The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. There may have been errors by those who preached in the “Old Paths”, but distorting the Word of God to make folks feel better about themselves was not one of them. In fact it was “conviction of sin”, the very sense of just how undeserving of acceptance, and just how merciful and gracious God has already been to us, that made so many (as Pilgrim in Pilgrim’s Progress) flee from the wrath to come.

God help us that we do not go backwards, when this wonderful site that offers so many messages from the OLD PATH, by trying to justify the very kind of New Path preaching that led to the present mess we are in.




:-)
Clint


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Clint Thornton

 2007/11/14 10:56Profile
broclint
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Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re: updated posts

Apoligies,

I was whacking away in my Word to cut and paste while some of the issues that I mentioned were already addressed... I'm a little slower than most to respond... :-(


_________________
Clint Thornton

 2007/11/14 11:06Profile









 Re:

I have just finished listening to the sermon. I really enjoyed Carter Conlon's message but I don't agree here that Moses misrepresented God. I went back and read Exodus 32 and unlike when Moses struck the rock and God corrected him for it God did not correct him here.

This is old testament times. These were times when if you cursed your parents you were stoned to death by law.

A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

1 Corinthians 10:6
Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

Moses said "thus saith the Lord" if it was not thus saith the Lord I believe scripture would have said otherwise.

Exodus 32:27-35

27And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

28And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

29For Moses had said, Consecrate yourselves today to the LORD, even every man upon his son, and upon his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day.

30And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.

31And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.

32Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

33And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

34Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.

35And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.

 2007/11/14 11:15
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
distorting the Word of God to make folks feel better about themselves was not one of them.


Of course, this is not a risk only among those who are trying to make their churches more (non)seeker friendly, but also among those who use the word to justify their self-righteousness law-dependency, including their harsh methods of condemnation, and heavy legalistic demands. Let’s admit, self-righteousness FEELS good! So does vengeance. It is a driving power! We might almost believe that in our day the latter (harsh legalist) has been replaced by the former (“seeker” friendly types) , but as Conlon suggested, it is the former who will BECOME the latter. From the frying pan into the fire!

I regard Conlon’s warning as applicable not merely for the future. I am already seeing it! There is indeed a form of repentance going on: coming out of the “system” – and it looks even revival-ish. But it is not the kind of repentance that leads to the New Life.

Learning to discern this problem takes Spirit enlightenment. The unauthentic can look so authentic.

Quote:
35And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.


The Lord ultimately took vengeance on Israel - after Moses had returned to him and said: “if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out …”

In God’s presence Moses’ anger was replaced with cries of mercy. Moses stepped aside and God stepped in!

Quote:
33And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.



I'm not convinced that Moses could have exercised this discretion in the sword rampage?

Diane


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Diane

 2007/11/14 12:47Profile
broclint
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Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re: last post

Quote:

Clint said: distorting the Word of God to make folks feel better about themselves was not one of them.

Diane said: Of course, this is not a risk only among those who are trying to make their churches more (non)seeker friendly, but also among those who use the word to justify their self-righteousness law-dependency, including their harsh methods of condemnation, and heavy legalistic demands.

The point is to not distort the Word of God period. God is able, through the Holy Spirit to speak comfort to whom comfort is needed, and rebuke to whom rebuke is needed when we simply do as Paul instructed Timothy:

2 Timothy 4:2 (NKJV) 2Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

And for the very reason that he gave:
2 Timothy 4:3 - 5 (NKJV) 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

And please my sister, do not assume anything about a person you do not know because of a denominational affiliation.
:-) clint


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Clint Thornton

 2007/11/14 13:33Profile





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