| Poster | Thread | roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California
| | Re: | | Quote:
One last thing, you are making one major theological error here in this statement:
How so?
Someone has to fulfill all the requirements of the Law, and live a sinless life, and also die for sinners to bear the wrath they deserved. We can't do this, and if Christ has not fulfilled all that is required, and if the Father has not imputed, or reckoned that to our account, then we are in trouble.
Quote:
So if a man believes, or has faith as a requirement of the covenant, it is not an issue of works at all, because works are unacceptable to God.
You are attempting to say that if a man believes and has faith, he is excercising a fleshly work to get into heaven, this is an impossibility according to all accounts of scripture.
No, I don't think I said that. A man that receives faith because of the new birth has nothing to boast in, and it is not a work of man, but of God.
If a man has faith in his faith, and not faith in Christ, then it like a work, because if we use our faith as something we hold out God as a means for Him to justify us apart from the object of our faith which is Christ.
Now considering what you said earlier about birth, it is interesting to see that Peter uses the term "seed" in this passage-
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
What is interesting is that the word for seed is "spora"
σπορά
spora
spor-ah'
From G4687; a sowing, that is, (by implication) parentage: - seed.
Its use is related to that of "sperm".
Now if we consider the conception of a child, we see(as you noted) an interesting development.
A woman once she realizes she is pregnant may often not know the date of conception. But she knows that she is pregnant due to physical, emotional, and other changes. But she can think back and come to good idea of when exactly the conception took place.
Now bring this over to the spiritual, and we can see that the word goes into a person, and they believe in Christ. They may not be able to tell you the exact day, or time(unfortunately our day has put the emphasis on this, but it was not always the case)of the conception, but they now know that there has been a change. They cannot enjoy sin as they used to, they now seek to please God who they did not care about before.
Perhaps this is also why Peter speaks of "new born babes" who desire milk. John speaks of children, young men, and fathers.
This is why the Gospel must be preached, because we do not know what God will do with it.
_________________
patrick heaviside
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|  2007/11/13 17:53 | Profile | Logic
Member
Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791
| | Re: | | Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:Quote:
Furthermore, when/where is s this so called rebirth (being in limbo) in which one is an unsaved born again person?
1John 3:9, 1John 4:7, 1John 5:1, 1John 5:4, 1John 5:18.
The rebirth may be unknown to us, or it may be. But the bottom line is that after we are given life, we will believe.
Your bottom line is that God saves those who curantly hate HIM. When they get saved, then they can love Him.
Is this correct? |
| | 2007/11/13 19:23 | Profile | rookie
Member
Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN
| | Re: | | Logic asks:
Quote:
Quote:
rookie wrote:
God speaking to man is the grace upon which faith is sown in the hearts of those who hear...
Where in the bible is faith sown in the heart?
Deut. 30:14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.
Again God "speaking to man is the grace" given to man which enables man to obey God. The heart is the source from which all action originates. The motivations of the heart define what we hope for. If God places His word in your heart, faith comes by hearing that word.
Luke 8:15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.
Your brother in Christ
jeff
_________________
Jeff Marshalek
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| | 2007/11/14 2:57 | Profile | Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791
| | Re: | | Quote:
rookie wrote:Quote:
Where in the bible is faith sown in the heart?
Deut. 30:14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.
Again God "speaking to man is the grace" given to man which enables man to obey God. The heart is the source from which all action originates. The motivations of the heart define what we hope for. If God places His word in your heart, faith comes by hearing that word.
Luke 8:15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.
Your brother in Christ
So the answer is no where. All you are doing is implying that faith sown in the heart.
Quote:
"speaking to man is the grace" given to man which enables man to obey God.
Where is this in the Bible?
Quote:
The motivations of the heart define what we hope for.
And this.
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If God places His word in your heart, faith comes by hearing that word.
You sure know how to mess with the Scriptures.
What you just said is not founded in the Scriptures.
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If God places His word in your heart, faith comes by hearing that word.
Please, quite twisting the Scripturse, it is very deceptive.
God does not "place" His word in your heart. One must hear it and keep it.
[b]Luke 11:28[/b] [color=990000]But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.[/color]
This impyes that it is the ones who hears the Words responsability to keep it in his heart.
Even in the verse that you gave it says that one heard the word kept it. Furthermore it is up to you to keep your own heart noble and good: [b]Prov 4:23[/b] [color=990000]Keep your heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.[/color]
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| | 2007/11/14 9:25 | Profile | Christinyou
Member
Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.
| | Re: | | Mark 4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.
Mark 4:30-31 And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it? It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:
Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Ephesians 2:7-8 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Mark 4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.
Saved through Faith sown on good ground.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Saved by faith, sown in good ground, living in this flesh by that Faith. Knowing that a man is justified by the Faith of Jesus Christ, sown with the Seed of the Father, by Grace through Faith, which is not of yourselves.
In Christ: Phillip
_________________
Phillip
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| | 2007/11/15 0:53 | Profile | BenWilliams
Member
Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas
| | Re: | | Hey roaringlamb,
sorry I didn't get to your last post, but I am reponding to it now, so here goes.
roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
How so?
Someone has to fulfill all the requirements of the Law, and live a sinless life, and also die for sinners to bear the wrath they deserved. We can't do this, and if Christ has not fulfilled all that is required, and if the Father has not imputed, or reckoned that to our account, then we are in trouble.
That is not what I meant exactly, I may have misunderstood your meaning, but let me try to convey what I was talking about.
I don't want to quote everything I said about covenants, but I had just finished a post that declared decisively the issue of salvation being a covenant between God and man, in which there is a requirement of man to have faith to partake in the covenant.
You responded this way:
Quote:
Christ is the reconciler because He alone fulfills all that is required for a man to be saved. Faith is the entrance into this work. This is why it is so offensive to God to put any stock into our own works as a means of righteousness.
What it appeared to me that you were saying was that if man was required to believe on his own, then that would be a work that the man could trust in, basically it would be works instead of faith.
That was the theological error I was attempting to point out, if I misunderstood you, I'm sorry.
I recommend that you listen to those messages by milton green, because they will show you a whole new aspect on the issue of salvation, and how it is a covenant.
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Quote:
No, I don't think I said that. A man that receives faith because of the new birth has nothing to boast in, and it is not a work of man, but of God.
If a man has faith in his faith, and not faith in Christ, then it like a work, because if we use our faith as something we hold out God as a means for Him to justify us apart from the object of our faith which is Christ.
This is what I was attempting to point out, the fact that a man has faith, defines it as such that it is faith in God, if it was faith in his faith, then it would not be faith to begin with, it would be false faith.
But any man who puts his faith in Christ truly, does not have faith in his faith.
But the scripture does teach that faith is the requirement to be a partaker of the covenant. Whether a man puts his faith in God, or in his faith, is between him and God, and God will deal with it.
Any man that has faith in his faith is probably not saved, because his faith is not in God. But remember that having faith by definition of what true faith is, is faith in God. Any other faith is not true faith.
-------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Now considering what you said earlier about birth, it is interesting to see that Peter uses the term "seed" in this passage-
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
What is interesting is that the word for seed is "spora"
σπορά
spora
spor-ah'
From G4687; a sowing, that is, (by implication) parentage: - seed.
Its use is related to that of "sperm".
Now if we consider the conception of a child, we see(as you noted) an interesting development.
A woman once she realizes she is pregnant may often not know the date of conception. But she knows that she is pregnant due to physical, emotional, and other changes. But she can think back and come to good idea of when exactly the conception took place.
Now bring this over to the spiritual, and we can see that the word goes into a person, and they believe in Christ. They may not be able to tell you the exact day, or time(unfortunately our day has put the emphasis on this, but it was not always the case)of the conception, but they now know that there has been a change. They cannot enjoy sin as they used to, they now seek to please God who they did not care about before.
Perhaps this is also why Peter speaks of "new born babes" who desire milk. John speaks of children, young men, and fathers.
While this sounds very good, the relationship of salvation to birth does not have to do with the mother, or her knowledge of it.
The sperm knows when it was created, and wrestles it's way to the egg to cause conception, that process alone if studied, you would see the similarities between that, and a man who is wrestling with the issues of faith until finally faith is conceived.
Do yourself a favor, and really study the intricacies of childbirth from sperm to conception to every stage, until the actual birth takes place.
That, and the issues of the covenant of salvation will really help our discussion.
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Quote:
This is why the Gospel must be preached, because we do not know what God will do with it.
Oh, but I do know what He will do with it, He will convict men's hearts of the truth every time the true gospel is preached. From that place of conviction He will command them to repent, who will believe, that is what we do not know.
_________________
Benjamin Williams
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| | 2007/11/15 12:27 | Profile | Christinyou
Member
Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.
| | Re: | | You can't put a sock in the water without the water being in the sock.
My faith in Christ has to be Christ's faith in me.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 2:19-20 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: (((((and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God,))))) who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Christ liveth in me by me living in Christ:
Phillip
_________________
Phillip
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| | 2007/11/15 13:12 | Profile | Logic
Member
Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791
| | Re: | | Quote:
Christinyou wrote:
You can't put a sock in the water without the water being in the sock.
My faith in Christ has to be Christ's faith in me.
It will never make any sence; you think that Jesus's faith in Himself or His faith in the Father is what saves you.
The faith of Christ is His faith only(If God has faith) just like I can not give my faith to anyone els, they must have there own. No one can use anothers faith. Faith is a concept of the mind it can not be tranfered. |
| | 2007/11/15 13:41 | Profile | Logic
Member
Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791
| | Re: | | Quote:
Christinyou wrote:
Saved through Faith sown on good ground.
Saved by faith, sown in good ground, living in this flesh by that Faith. Knowing that a man is justified by the Faith of Jesus Christ, sown with the Seed of the Father, by Grace through Faith, which is not of yourselves.
Where do you get this?
There is no implication that faith is being sown. |
| | 2007/11/15 13:44 | Profile | BenWilliams
Member
Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas
| | Re: | | Christinyou wrote:
Quote:
You can't put a sock in the water without the water being in the sock.
Actually, the water gets in the sock once it is put in the water, if the water was already in the sock why would you put it in the water?
Quote:
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
I researched this verse with strong's concordance, and the word "of" is not the word of, it is the word "in" based off of the meaning of the word faith which comes before it, which means "belief in". So this is not a valid verse to argue this idea.
Quote:
Galatians 2:19-20 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: (((((and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God,))))) who loved me, and gave himself for me.
As I suspected, it is exactly the same case for this verse as well, which means it as well is an invalid argument.
_________________
Benjamin Williams
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| | 2007/11/15 13:52 | Profile |
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