Blessing to you Brother, it is so good to hear from you. I trust all is well with you and yours.
Hey, Pastor. Had no idea this was going on. He will be in town (Little Rock) in a few days and is on his world wind tour celebrating Israel and stuff...was contemplating on going. What thinkest thou?
Only if the Lord told me to go, otherwise not a chance.
Let us know how you are doing, and as one who is currently serving in the US Army, Thank You for your service and sacrifice.
In His Love
| 2007/11/12 20:53||Profile|
I am just trying to figure out where he is getting this.
It is curious, how he can consider himself a minister of the Christian Gospel without the Christ. I imagine even many Jewish people are scratching their heads on this one.
| 2007/11/12 22:00||Profile|
I imagine even many Jewish people are scratching their heads on this one.
It appears to me that he does not rightly understand all the events leading up to the Bar Kochba revolt. It is utterly false to assert that Jesus was not 'appearing' to them to be the Messiah. As many have pointed out already; the resurrection is the mother of all 'signs' that He indeed was and is the Messiah.
I cannot imagine Paul the Apostle letting the unbelieving Jews or Gentiles off the hook with such a false concept. Truly there was and [i]is[/i] a remnant of Jews that believe. Truly there was and is a remnant of Gentiles that believe. Not all Gentiles and not all Jews believe. He came to His own but His own received Him not.
I have also, in my feeble way, tried to make a contribution to the cause of winning the Jews to Christ through sharing of what I know in these forums and in articles. It is [i]dangerous[/i] to point a one sided view of why the Jews do not believe. The truth is, many rejected Christ in the 1st century long before the standard list of persecutions and such existed. What was their excuse before. When the audible voice spoke from heaven or when the dead were raised? When He was raised againm on the third day? When the vail was torn in two at His death or when it was total darkness over the land at His death.
There were multiplied signs and wonders and various miracles. There were even miracles that fulfilled Messianic prophesies that we do not catch in the 21st century as we read the scriptures. Matthew 21 is most telling:
But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
This is a clear account that they in fact [u]did[/u] know what they were doing and who Christ was. The people of Israel was His inheritance and they DID in fact seize upon it when they led the bulk of the people of Israel away into Rabbinic Judaism through a series of political and strong arm measures.
The most obsene thing about what I have heard and read is that it seems that the LORD Himself is being blamed for the Jews not believing. And I understand the complexity of some of the passages in Romans and other places that deal with the blindness of the Jews, etc. However, there is never a point when the New Testament scriptures allows an individual to believe that those that reject Christ can be saved some other way. Anyone that tries to come some other way is a thief and a robber.
It is also important to take into account that it was the unbelieving Jews that cursed the believers in the synagogues with the birkat ha minim. Akiba actually tried to force the believing Jews to choose between following Christ or Simon Bar Kochba as war was approaching. This was after the city was destroyed and the Temple Mount plowed under. They tried to make the believers out as traitors of the Jews because they would not follow this false 'messiah'. The Jews were expelled from Israel and the land was renamed Palistine and Jerusalem Aliah Capitolina (sp?). Why? Because they were desperate to crown anyone messiah except the TRUE Messiah.
Now, I have written about what the 'Christians' did to the Jews througout history. I have articles on the Yellow Badges, Martin Luther, and other issues that involve the church. But the reality is, it is a two sided story. To blame any sin on anyone other than the sinner is sin itself. What more can He say than to them He has said? They did not believe Moses and the prophets and they did not believe Christ when He arose either. They saw the mountain on FIRE and built a golden calf in the light of it! Understand that the persecutors will give an account to God for what they have done with the Jews. And those who reject Christ, to the Jew first and also to the Greek will answer to God for what they have done with His Son.
Robert Wurtz II
| 2007/11/13 0:17||Profile|
| Re: John Hagee's Denial of Christ as Messiah|
Has anyone read the book or found anything that has been put out in defense of this?
I was trying to think of how he could come up with this. I think it has to do with his end-time thinking. He believes that there will be a large Jewish revival at the 2nd coming, right? If so, maybe he is saying that is when Jesus will come as their messiah?
Of course, I disagree. Jesus is the messiah now. I am just trying to figure out where he is getting this.
As best I can understand it, Hagee has always stated that the Jews did not want the Suffering Servant to be the Anointed One, even though He was and is.
Hagee is speaking to the Jews belief in Messiah as King and Conqueror only.
In attempting to not condemn the man, I try to believe in his sincere desire to reach the Jews, but only God can know what Hagee truly meant in his heart when he wrote those incredible words.
Yet, in an odd way, from the Jews point of view, Hagee is correct in what he wrote, even if it is not the entire truth, that Jesus of Nazareth was the Suffering Servant Messiah, and He, this same Jesus of Nazareth, Glorified by the Father, and empowered to rule in God's stead, will return as the Conquering King.
It is a pity that Hagee couldn't see his error, in his zeal to reach the Jews, and explain to them what they will accept from God alone; either by the Holy Spirit speaking to their hearts, or when Jesus returns, and shows His wounds to them, and they, the Jews, begin to mourn as if they had killed their own first born son.
| 2007/11/13 2:59||Profile|
| Re: John Hagee Denies Jesus Is The Messiah|
Back in the early nineties while I was still lost, one of my sisters who was saved sent me tapes she taped of John Hagees sermons trying to lead me to our Lord. I didnt listen to them at the time but I kept them and after I was saved I got them out and listened.
The Gulf War had ended with a complete victory for the coalition forces but the prophecies of John all fresh to me seven years after the event convinced me to disregard the man.
| 2007/11/13 6:33||Profile|
I'm a little surprised by this. Tho I have not followed Hagee's ministry much, and tho he is WOF, I have always thought that his basic theology about who Jesus was was not too far out there. BUT... thats what I get for not paying too close attention.
Anyone who comes out and says "My book will change Christian theology..." is someone worth avoiding. As if God allowed 2000 years to go by with the Church believing the wrong theology... until John Hagee came along to straighten it out.
That alone is a red flag.
The Gulf War had ended with a complete victory for the coalition forces...
Not trying to nit-pick, Rowdy, but the Gulf War didnt end in "complete" victory. If we had been allowed to finish the job we wouldnt be over there now. Unfortunately, instead of the generals running the war, the politicians ran it... and so here we are a decade later still basically fighting the same war. :-)
But thats a debate for another day... I dont want to distract this thread. If anyone has any comments about that previous paragraph please start another thread. (Sorry for the interruption!!)
| 2007/11/13 7:44|
By the way... there is a place for preachers and teachers. Scripture teaches us this. However, most Christians in western society spend more time reading books bought at the "Christian" trinket stores than they do reading the [b]only[/b] Book that matters.
As long as this is the case, heretics will reign supreme, and the sheep will follow them.
Folks, put the books down, let the publishing companies take a hit on the profit margin, and pick up the Bible. You could read and study the Word of God 12 hours a day for the rest of your life and not come anywhere near exhausting the rich treasures that are to be found between Genesis and Revelation.
| 2007/11/13 8:37|
Krispy's: Anyone who comes out and says "My book will change Christian theology..." is someone worth avoiding. As if God allowed 2000 years to go by with the Church believing the wrong theology... until John Hagee came along to straighten it out.
That alone is a red flag.
Amen to this. The bottom line is, we live in a time when many preachers are increasingly finding clever ways to excuse sinners and allow them to remain in rebellion. People don't have to agree with God anymore when He says there is none righteous- no not one. The Jews rejected the suffering servant aspect of Messianic prophecy [i]and[/i] the Messiah because they wanted to view themselves as the victims by reading 'Israel' into the suffering servant passages of Isaiah. This is even more pronounced today in some cases.
Understand that Rabbinic Judaism is a religion that allows a person to never fully come to grips with their sinfulness. They never have to have a "woe is me for I am undone" experience. they never feel the need to count their own righteousness (which is by the Law) as dung that they might win Christ. To patronize this rebellion is heresy in my mind. It is contributing to the delinquency of a sinner.
Notice how the young ruler approached Jesus, "GOOD MASTER... what must I do..." They were in the habit of passing out accolades to each other as if they were free. Jesus had to break this young man of this- WHY callest thou me good? The Pharisees were so exalted in their own eyes that there is no way they could humble themselves to believe that they are wretched sinners like the rest. There were advantages to being a Jew, but they have to come the same route everyone else does. They MUST be born again (John 3:3).
It befuddles me that folk can read through the New Testament and not understand that Jesus Christ came to save sinners. People are sinful to the core and need to be regenerated. They are in Adam and need to be in Christ. They need the Holy Spirit indwelling them. How could the unbelieving Jews possibly be innocent when Steven told the pointedly that they did ALWAYS resist the Holy Ghost and killed the prophets and finally the Messiah? This is not difficult and ministers need to get a revelation who they are working for. You are not a sinners advocate- you are the Ambassador of Christ.
Robert Wurtz II
| 2007/11/13 9:08||Profile|
Dear brothers and sisters,
I thought it would be alright and appropriate to mention here some of the reasons our scriptures give as to why so many of the people of Israel of that day rejected the Lord Jesus. This is an interesting question that may come up for us from time to time. I think there is also much to consider in these things for ourselves.
Here are a few of the reasons as I recall them...
"But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Isaiah said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Isaiah, when he saw his glory, and spake of him."
- John 12:37-41(KJV)
They hated Him and did not want Him to rule over them.
"But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us."
- Luke 19;14(KJV)
They did not want to loose their place.
"If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation."
- John 11:48(KJV)
Lots to consider along with what brother RobertW was saying.
Christopher Joel Dandrow
| 2007/11/14 18:48||Profile|
In attempting to not condemn the man, I try to believe in his sincere desire to reach the Jews
John Hagee has been quoted as saying:
Im not trying to convert the Jewish people to the Christian faith. In fact, trying to convert Jews is a waste of time, he said. The Jewish person who has his roots in Judaism is not going to convert to Christianity. There is no form of Christian evangelism that has failed so miserably as evangelizing the Jewish people. They (already) have a faith structure. Everyone else, whether Buddhist or Bahai, needs to believe in Jesus, he says. But not Jews. Jews already have a covenant with God that has never been replaced by Christianity, he says.
| 2007/11/14 19:32|