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 following the 10 Commandments

[b]In response to the idea of following the 10 Commandments in order to obey God, let us look at a few scriptures. 11/11/2006[/b]

[color=Orange][b]Col 2:11 In Him also you were circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, but in a [spiritual] circumcision [performed by] Christ by stripping off the body of the flesh (the whole corrupt, carnal nature with its passions and lusts).
Col 2:12 [Thus you were circumcised when] you were buried with Him in [your] baptism, in which you were also raised with Him [to a new life] through [your] faith in the working of God [as displayed] when He raised Him up from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you who were dead in trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your flesh (your sensuality, your sinful carnal nature), [God] brought to life together with [Christ], having [freely] forgiven us all our transgressions,
Col 2:14 Having cancelled and blotted out and wiped away the handwriting of the note (bond) with its legal decrees and demands which was in force and stood against us (hostile to us). This [note with its regulations, decrees, and demands] He set aside and cleared completely out of our way by nailing it to [His] cross.
Col 2:15 [God] disarmed the principalities and powers that were ranged against us and made a bold display and public example of them, in triumphing over them in Him and in it [the cross].
Col 2:16 Therefore let no one sit in judgment on you in matters of food and drink, or with regard to a feast day or a New Moon or a Sabbath.
Col 2:17 Such [things] are only the shadow of things that are to come, and they have only a symbolic value. But the reality (the substance, the solid fact of what is foreshadowed, the body of it) belongs to Christ. [/b][/color]

Notice this>> following the Sabbath and any other form of Law is NOT the substance but only a shadow. JESUS is the TRUE SUBSTANCE.

[color=Blue][b]Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that [the murmurs and excuses of] every mouth may be hushed and all the world may be held accountable to God.
Rom 3:20 For no person will be justified (made righteous, acquitted, and judged acceptable) in His sight by observing the works prescribed by the Law. For [the real function of] the Law is to make men recognize and be conscious of sin [not mere perception, but an acquaintance with sin which works toward repentance, faith, and holy character].
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been revealed independently and altogether apart from the Law, although actually it is attested by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 Namely, the righteousness of God which comes by believing with personal trust and confident reliance on Jesus Christ (the Messiah). [And it is meant] for all who believe. For there is no distinction,[/b][/color]

Obviously, there is a righteousness that comes from NOT observing the Law including the 10 Commandments which is ONLY FOUND in Christ Jesus.

[color=Orange][b]Rom 4:13 For the promise to Abraham or his posterity, that he should inherit the world, did not come through [observing the commands of] the Law but through the righteousness of faith. [Gen. 17:4-6; 22:16-18.]
Rom 4:14 If it is the adherents of the Law who are to be the heirs, then faith is made futile and empty of all meaning and the promise [of God] is made void (is annulled and has no power).
Rom 4:15 For the Law results in [divine] wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression [of it either].
Rom 4:16 Therefore, [inheriting] the promise is the outcome of faith and depends [entirely] on faith, in order that it might be given as an act of grace (unmerited favor), to make it stable and valid and guaranteed to all his descendants--not only to the devotees and adherents of the Law, but also to those who share the faith of Abraham, who is [thus] the father of us all.[/b][/color]

It seems that no matter what anyone says today, the scriptures say no righteousness comes from observing the Law that Moses gave. [u][b]NOTICE>>> Moses gave the 10 Commandments![/b]
[/u]

[color=Blue][b]Rom 10:3 For being ignorant of the righteousness that God ascribes [which makes one acceptable to Him in word, thought, and deed] and seeking to establish a righteousness (a means of salvation) of their own, they did not obey or submit themselves to God's righteousness.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the Law [the limit at which it ceases to be, for the Law leads up to Him Who is the fulfillment of its types, and in Him the purpose which it was designed to accomplish is fulfilled. That is, the purpose of the Law is fulfilled in Him] as the means of righteousness (right relationship to God) for everyone who trusts in and adheres to and relies on Him.
Rom 10:5 For Moses writes that the man who [can] practice the righteousness (perfect conformity to God's will) which is based on the Law [with all its intricate demands] shall live by it. [Lev. 18:5.]
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness based on faith [imputed by God and bringing right relationship with Him] says, Do not say in your heart, Who will ascend into Heaven? that is, to bring Christ down;
Rom 10:7 Or who will descend into the abyss? that is, to bring Christ up from the dead [as if we could be saved by our own efforts]. [Deut. 30:12, 13.]
Rom 10:8 But what does it say? The Word (God's message in Christ) is near you, on your lips and in your heart; that is, the Word (the message, the basis and object) of faith which we preach, [Deut. 30:14.]
Rom 10:9 Because if you acknowledge and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and in your heart believe (adhere to, trust in, and rely on the truth) that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart a person believes (adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Christ) and so is justified (declared righteous, acceptable to God), and with the mouth he confesses (declares openly and speaks out freely his faith) and confirms [his] salvation. [/b][/color]

Once again we see it is NOT following a list of Rules or Laws which brings or keeps us in a close, intimate relationship with the Lord but rather it is a faith which affects to life of the believer to obey whatever God commands from the heart. We trust in Christ as our Rest, He is the end of the Law, the end of any attempt by man to obey God out of effort. This obedience comes by faith in Him and is a living faith that is in the heart.

[color=Orange][b]Gal 2:16 Yet we know that a man is justified or reckoned righteous and in right standing with God not by works of the Law, but [only] through faith and [absolute] reliance on and adherence to and trust in Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One). [Therefore] even we [ourselves] have believed on Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law [for we cannot be justified by any observance of the ritual of the Law given by Moses], because by keeping legal rituals and by works no human being can ever be justified (declared righteous and put in right standing with God). [Ps. 143:2.]
Gal 2:17 But if, in our desire and endeavor to be justified in Christ [to be declared righteous and put in right standing with God wholly and solely through Christ], we have shown ourselves sinners also and convicted of sin, does that make Christ a minister (a party and contributor) to our sin? Banish the thought! [Of course not!]
Gal 2:18 For if I [or any others who have taught that the observance of the Law of Moses is not essential to being justified by God should now by word or practice teach or intimate that it is essential to] build up again what I tore down, I prove myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the Law [under the operation of the curse of the Law] have [in Christ's death for me] myself died to the Law and all the Law's demands upon me, so that I may [henceforth] live to and for God.
Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ [in Him I have shared His crucifixion]; it is no longer I who live, but Christ (the Messiah) lives in me; and the life I now live in the body I live by faith in (by adherence to and reliance on and complete trust in) the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
Gal 2:21 [Therefore, I do not treat God's gracious gift as something of minor importance and defeat its very purpose]; I do not set aside and invalidate and frustrate and nullify the grace (unmerited favor) of God. For if justification (righteousness, acquittal from guilt) comes through [observing the ritual of] the Law, then Christ (the Messiah) died groundlessly and to no purpose and in vain. [His death was then wholly superfluous.] [/b][/color]

How many times do we need to be told that observance of any part of the Law does us no good at all?

[color=Blue][b]Gal 5:3 I once more protest and testify to every man who receives circumcision that he is under obligation and bound to practice the whole of the Law and its ordinances.
Gal 5:4 If you seek to be justified and declared righteous and to be given a right standing with God through the Law, you are brought to nothing and so separated (severed) from Christ. You have fallen away from grace (from God's gracious favor and unmerited blessing).
Gal 5:5 For we, [not relying on the Law but] through the [Holy] Spirit's [help], by faith anticipate and wait for the blessing and good for which our righteousness and right standing with God [our conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action, causes us] to hope.
Gal 5:6 For [if we are] in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith activated and energized and expressed and working through love. [/b][/color]

Not only does following the Law do us no good, but we are told that if we do follow these written rules, then we are separated from Christ Jesus and have fallen from grace!

[color=Blue][b]Gal 5:16 But I say, walk and live [habitually] in the [Holy] Spirit [responsive to and controlled and guided by the Spirit]; then you will certainly not gratify the cravings and desires of the flesh (of human nature without God).
Gal 5:17 For the desires of the flesh are opposed to the [Holy] Spirit, and the [desires of the] Spirit are opposed to the flesh (godless human nature); for these are antagonistic to each other [continually withstanding and in conflict with each other], so that you are not free but are prevented from doing what you desire to do.
Gal 5:18 But if you are guided (led) by the [Holy] Spirit, you are not subject to the Law.
Gal 5:19 Now the doings (practices) of the flesh are clear (obvious): they are immorality, impurity, indecency,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger (ill temper), selfishness, divisions (dissensions), party spirit (factions, sects with peculiar opinions, heresies),
Gal 5:21 Envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you beforehand, just as I did previously, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law [that can bring a charge].
Gal 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus (the Messiah) have crucified the flesh (the godless human nature) with its passions and appetites and desires.
Gal 5:25 If we live by the [Holy] Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. [If by the Holy Spirit we have our life in God, let us go forward walking in line, our conduct controlled by the Spirit.] [/b][/color]

This clearly shows us that IF we are truly saved and obey God by following the Holy Spirit we will not walk in sin, the flesh will be crucified (THAT DOES MEAN IT IS DEAD!) and we will live a life that looks JUST LIKE JESUS! (Mostly because it will be Him who lives His life through us!)

[color=Blue][b]1Ti 1:3 As I urged you when I was on my way to Macedonia, stay on where you are at Ephesus in order that you may warn and admonish and charge certain individuals not to teach any different doctrine,
1Ti 1:4 Nor to give importance to or occupy themselves with legends (fables, myths) and endless genealogies, which foster and promote useless speculations and questionings rather than acceptance in faith of God's administration and the divine training that is in faith (in that leaning of the entire human personality on God in absolute trust and confidence)--
1Ti 1:5 Whereas the object and purpose of our instruction and charge is love, which springs from a pure heart and a good (clear) conscience and sincere (unfeigned) faith.
1Ti 1:6 But certain individuals have missed the mark on this very matter [and] have wandered away into vain arguments and discussions and purposeless talk.
1Ti 1:7 They are ambitious to be doctors of the Law (teachers of the Mosaic ritual), but they have no understanding either of the words and terms they use or of the subjects about which they make [such] dogmatic assertions.
1Ti 1:8 Now we recognize and know that the Law is good if anyone uses it lawfully [for the purpose for which it was designed],
1Ti 1:9 Knowing and understanding this: that the Law is not enacted for the righteous (the upright and just, who are in right standing with God), but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinful, for the irreverent and profane, for those who strike and beat and [even] murder fathers and strike and beat and [even] murder mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 [For] impure and immoral persons, those who abuse themselves with men, kidnapers, liars, perjurers--and whatever else is opposed to wholesome teaching and sound doctrine [/b][/color]

What is Paul saying here? He says clearly that the Law is NOT for those who have been made righteous by faith in Christ Jesus, but rather ONLY for those who have yet to become children of God. Is that what we are calling ourselves, outside of Christ and under the Law? We cannot have both!

[color=Orange][b]Heb 4:4 For in a certain place He has said this about the seventh day: And God rested on the seventh day from all His works. [Gen. 2:2.]
Heb 4:5 And [they forfeited their part in it, for] in this [passage] He said, They shall not enter My rest. [Ps. 95:11.]
Heb 4:6 Seeing then that the promise remains over [from past times] for some to enter that rest, and that those who formerly were given the good news about it and the opportunity, failed to appropriate it and did not enter because of disobedience,
Heb 4:7 Again He sets a definite day, [a new] Today, [and gives another opportunity of securing that rest] saying through David after so long a time in the words already quoted, Today, if you would hear His voice and when you hear it, do not harden your hearts. [Ps. 95:7, 8.]
Heb 4:8 [This mention of a rest was not a reference to their entering into Canaan.] For if Joshua had given them rest, He [God] would not speak afterward about another day.
Heb 4:9 So then, there is still awaiting a full and complete Sabbath-rest reserved for the [true] people of God;
Heb 4:10 For he who has once entered [God's] rest also has ceased from [the weariness and pain] of human labors, just as God rested from those labors peculiarly His own. [Gen. 2:2.]
Heb 4:11 Let us therefore be zealous and exert ourselves and strive diligently to enter that rest [of God, to know and experience it for ourselves], that no one may fall or perish by the same kind of unbelief and disobedience [into which those in the wilderness fell].[/b][/color]

This REST is ONLY found in Christ Jesus, NOT in observing a day. For it is ONLY when we truly come to the place of absolute Trust and Reliance on the Lord Jesus Christ that Gal 2:20 becomes a reality.

[color=Blue][b]Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ [in Him I have shared His crucifixion]; it is no longer I who live, but Christ (the Messiah) lives in me; and the life I now live in the body I live by faith in (by adherence to and reliance on and complete trust in) the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself up for me. [/b][/color]

Herein is the Rest of God, the TRUE Sabbath which is ONLY found in Christ Jesus. Following a Day, a time, a feast, a Sabbath does nothing except make us law keepers. Once we have Entered His rest, we cease from our own works, relying exclusively on the Life of Jesus Christ in us to fulfill everything God requires. Once we enter that Rest, the old life is DEAD, it is wholly a NEW LIFE in Christ Jesus, the Zoe of God, we have ceased attempting to try to please God in ANY WAY by observing any kind of rules. We please God by our reliance on the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and His life in us and our submission to allow Him to be our righteousness in our lives. We have the Law of God written on our hearts and minds just as the scriptures said.

We could talk much longer on all of this and give many more verses that all support this reality. However, unless we are willing to be wrong, unless we are willing to submit to whatever God desires for our lives no matter what we have been previously taught, we will never see His truth in Christ Jesus. I pray that the Lord would reveal Himself to us all as HE truly is!

A bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

 2007/11/10 19:07
wildbranch
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138


 Re: following the 10 Commandments

Bndslave wrote, amongst other things----------..."How many times do we need to be told that observance of any part of the Law does us no good at all?...Not only does following the Law do us no good, but we are told that if we do follow these written rules, then we are separated from Christ Jesus and have fallen from grace!...
_________________________________________________

***Exodus 20 lists the "Ten Commandments"***

You shall have no other Gods before me.

You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

You shall not murder.

You shall not commit adultery.

You shall not steal.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s."
_________________________________________________

--Bndslave--, could you please elaborate how keeping any of these commandments does us, quote: "...no good at all.... and not only does following the Law do us not good, but we are told that if we do follow these written rules, then we are separated from Christ Jesus and have fallen from grace"....???

Do you also agree with those who have abolished the Ten Commandments from schools and courthouses throughout North America, seeing that you believe they 'do us no good at all'???

Also, do your beliefs reflect those of mainstream Christianity?

Thanks!

 2007/11/10 21:42Profile









 Re:

Dear Wildbranch,

Most of the answers you crave are in the previous thread, CONTROLLED BEHAVIOR.

However, let me quickly attempt to answer what you have asked. The Pharisees attempted to obey those commandments, but they could not change the inside of them; their hearts remained corrupt and carnal.

If we attempt to do them we will end up the same as they.

Therefore, we cannot allow ourselves to be insane, attempting to do what has been done before expecting different results. NO!!!

There must be another way. This way is death; death of the corrupt, carnal flesh that we were born with. Then resurrection into the new life that is found through faith in Christ Jesus.

Once we are truly changed on the INSIDE, there will be NO CONFLICT with our desires and the will of God; they will be the same. (obviously that means our desires will have COMPLETELY CHANGED, for God changes not!)

Now, the only way we will ever learn these things is by studying what the scriptures say, recognizing that our hearts are NOT what God desires them to be, repenting of ALL SIN, consecrating ourselves TOTALLY TO HIM, and allowing Jesus to cleanse us completely on the inside.

Please understand that I am not going into detail here, just attempting to answer your questions simply.

Is this idea the same as mainstream Christianity?

NOT!

Thank God! It is God's way, which is WHY it is not the same as mainstream Christianity. There is no price to pay in modern Christianity, there is no selflessness; there is no resting in Jesus and allowing HIM to live His life through us, there is NO denial of ourselves in what we call Christianity today.

But ALL of these things ARE in the Bible. Holiness is REQUIRED of us or we will NOT SEE the Kingdom of God. This is NOT positional holiness either but rather it is REAL, EXPERIENTIAL HOLINESS and RIGHTEOUSNESS. IF it is NOT real and experiential, then we do not possess it.

No amount of legislation, posting of the 10 commandments, or any other legal or secular means of promoting Christianity or obedience to God will EVER produce TRUE CHRISTIANS. ONLY INDIVIDUAL REVELATION received by the Holy Spirit causing us to repent, consecrate, and submit utterly to the Lord will every BEGIN to cause us to change on the inside to be the people of God.

As Jesus told the Pharisees, they cleaned the outside of the cup but the inside was full of uncleaness and filth. If our hearts are full of uncleaness and filth, we must get them cleansed by the Lord HIMSELF so the He will remove that corrupt, carnal fleshly nature an dreplace with His own nature.

Please read CONTROLLED BEHAVIOR and also read HE WHO ENDURES TO THE END. . .

I have posted several others and they all speak of similar things and are all in agreement with each other and ALL the scriptures.

The trouble with mainline Christianity today is, it does NOT live a life that is in agreement with the teaching of the scriptures.

I hope that helps you. God Bless!

a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

 2007/11/10 22:21
wildbranch
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138


 Re: abolishing the Ten Commandments...

Bndslave wrote, amongst other things----------..."How many times do we need to be told that observance of any part of the Law does us no good at all?...Not only does following the Law do us no good, but we are told that if we do follow these written rules, then we are separated from Christ Jesus and have fallen from grace!...

I had asked---------"--Bndslave--, could you please elaborate how keeping any of these commandments does us, quote: "...no good at all.... and not only does following the Law do us not good, but we are told that if we do follow these written rules, then we are separated from Christ Jesus and have fallen from grace"....???

Do you also agree with those who have abolished the Ten Commandments from schools and courthouses throughout North America, seeing that you believe they 'do us no good at all'???
_________________________________________________

Bndslave-------your reply seems to indicate (wrongly), that I think one can attain righteousness without coming to salvation through the blood of Yeshua. I believe firmly that Yeshua is our salvation (His name alone indicates that!).
_________________________________________________

I fail to see how you reconcile your very strong stance [i]against the Ten Commandments of God[/i], with the words of Yeshua, (whom you believe to be God-in-the-flesh)?

Yeshua said: "Matthew 5:17-19 - "Do not think that I came to annul (Strong's G#2647 - katalyo: throw down, abolish, destroy) the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to annul, but to fulfill (Strong's G#4137 - pleroo: to fulfill, make full). Truly I say to you, until the heavens and the earth pass away, in no way shall one jot or tittle pass away from the Law until all comes to pass. Whoever then shall [b]break one of these commandments, even the least[/b], and shall teach men to do so, shall be called least by the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever [b]does and teaches them[/b], this one shall be called great by the Kingdom of Heaven."

and in ......... "Rev 12:17 says, "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which [b]keep the commandments of the God[/b], and have the testimony of Yeshua Messiah".....

--------Why is the dragon trying to destroy those who [b]keep the commandments of God[/b], and have the testimony of Yeshua?

and ........"Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who [b]keep the commandments of God[/b] and the faith of Yeshua." (Revelation 14:12)

--------Why is there a call here in the closing chapters of the bible for the endurance of the saints who [b]keep the commandments of God[/b] and the faith of Yeshua, if these are, as you say, 'no good at all....and [i]if we do keep the commandments, then we are separated from Christ Jesus and have fallen from grace[/i]....'

-------There seems to be a great dichotomy here-------

The selective quotes you chose from the apostle Paul's writings, seem to contradict the Messiah's own words and those of other NT writers------remember what James says about faith without works being dead. The apostle Peter did warn us about those who would twist Paul's writings to their own destruction.........later we had people like Marcion who accepted only the gospel of Luke to the exclusion of the other three gospels. He also accepted all of Paul’s writings but he would "cut out" any Old Testament quote or anything else that contradicted his theological views. He rejected all other books of the Bible except Luke + Paul’s writings.

_________________________________________________

Bndslave said----------"Once we are truly changed on the INSIDE, there will be NO CONFLICT with our desires and the will of God; they will be the same. (obviously that means our desires will have COMPLETELY CHANGED, for God changes not!) --------------[b]I agree fully with your statement there![/b]

Thanks




 2007/11/11 10:57Profile









 Re:

Wildbranch,

Did Jesus fulfill the Law? Yes or no?

That answers MANY questions right there. And then there is this>>>

Gal 4:21 Tell me, you who are bent on being under the Law, will you listen to what the Law [really] says?
Gal 4:22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondmaid and one by the free woman. [Gen. 16:15; 21:2, 9.]
Gal 4:23 But whereas the child of the slave woman was born according to the flesh and had an ordinary birth, the son of the free woman was born in fulfillment of the promise.
Gal 4:24 Now all this is an allegory; these [two women] represent two covenants. One covenant originated from Mount Sinai [where the Law was given] and bears [children destined] for slavery; this is Hagar.
Gal 4:25 Now Hagar is (stands for) Mount Sinai in Arabia and she corresponds to and belongs in the same category with the present Jerusalem, for she is in bondage together with her children.
Gal 4:26 But the Jerusalem above (the Messianic kingdom of Christ) is free, and she is our mother.
Gal 4:27 For it is written in the Scriptures, Rejoice, O barren woman, who has not given birth to children; break forth into a joyful shout, you who are not feeling birth pangs, for the desolate woman has many more children than she who has a husband. [Isa. 54:1.]
Gal 4:28 But we, brethren, are children [not by physical descent, as was Ishmael, but] like Isaac, born in virtue of promise.
Gal 4:29 Yet [just] as at that time the child [of ordinary birth] born according to the flesh despised and persecuted him [who was born remarkably] according to [the promise and the working of] the [Holy] Spirit, so it is now also. [Gen. 21:9.]
Gal 4:30 But what does the Scripture say? Cast out and send away the slave woman and her son, for never shall the son of the slave woman be heir and share the inheritance with the son of the free woman. [Gen. 21:10.]
Gal 4:31 So, brethren, we [who are born again] are not children of a slave woman [the natural], but of the free [the supernatural].

Gal 5:1 IN [this] freedom Christ has made us free [and completely liberated us]; stand fast then, and do not be hampered and held ensnared and submit again to a yoke of slavery [which you have once put off].
Gal 5:2 Notice, it is I, Paul, who tells you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no profit (advantage, avail) to you [for if you distrust Him, you can gain nothing from Him].
Gal 5:3 I once more protest and testify to every man who receives circumcision that he is under obligation and bound to practice the whole of the Law and its ordinances.
Gal 5:4 If you seek to be justified and declared righteous and to be given a right standing with God through the Law, you are brought to nothing and so separated (severed) from Christ. You have fallen away from grace (from God's gracious favor and unmerited blessing).
Gal 5:5 For we, [not relying on the Law but] through the [Holy] Spirit's [help], by faith anticipate and wait for the blessing and good for which our righteousness and right standing with God [our conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action, causes us] to hope.
Gal 5:6 For [if we are] in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith activated and energized and expressed and working through love.
Gal 5:7 You were running the race nobly. Who has interfered in (hindered and stopped you from) your heeding and following the Truth?
Gal 5:8 This [evil] persuasion is not from Him Who called you [Who invited you to freedom in Christ].
Gal 5:9 A little leaven (a slight inclination to error, or a few false teachers) leavens the whole lump [it perverts the whole conception of faith or misleads the whole church].
Gal 5:10 [For my part] I have confidence [toward you] in the Lord that you will take no contrary view of the matter but will come to think with me. But he who is unsettling you, whoever he is, will have to bear the penalty.
Gal 5:11 But, brethren, if I still preach circumcision [as some accuse me of doing, as necessary to salvation], why am I still suffering persecution? In that case the cross has ceased to be a stumbling block and is made meaningless (done away).
Gal 5:12 I wish those who unsettle and confuse you would [go all the way and] cut themselves off!
Gal 5:13 For you, brethren, were [indeed] called to freedom; only [do not let your] freedom be an incentive to your flesh and an opportunity or excuse [for selfishness], but through love you should serve one another.
Gal 5:14 For the whole Law [concerning human relationships] is complied with in the one precept, You shall love your neighbor as [you do] yourself. [Lev. 19:18.]
Gal 5:15 But if you bite and devour one another [in partisan strife], be careful that you [and your whole fellowship] are not consumed by one another.
Gal 5:16 But I say, walk and live [habitually] in the [Holy] Spirit [responsive to and controlled and guided by the Spirit]; then you will certainly not gratify the cravings and desires of the flesh (of human nature without God).
Gal 5:17 For the desires of the flesh are opposed to the [Holy] Spirit, and the [desires of the] Spirit are opposed to the flesh (godless human nature); for these are antagonistic to each other [continually withstanding and in conflict with each other], so that you are not free but are prevented from doing what you desire to do.
Gal 5:18 But if you are guided (led) by the [Holy] Spirit, you are not subject to the Law.

Therefore we should understand that we are NO LONGER under the FIRST COVENANT but under the NEW COVENANT of which Jesus Himself is the surety. He causes us to fulfill the righteous demands of the LAW by Living His life through us.

We are to be LED by the HOly Spirit NOT by some list of rules., for we are now His children and our natures are to be the same as His Own. (that is NOT saying we are GOD though HE is)

We keep the Commandments of God by being obedient to the Holy Spirit. The WHOLE LAW was given as part of the FIRST COVENANT, which includes the 10 Commandments. But there is still the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, which is the same as it was from the Beginning.

Show me where in the Bible that there was any LAW that the people during the time of Noah broke and sinned. Yet we are told that they did indeed sin constantly.

THe same "Law" they broke is the LAW of the Spirit of LIfe in Christ Jesus. THAT is the Law we are under and it is supposed to be written on the heart, for the heart MUST be cleansed in order for us to live in the same manner Jesus lived.

By the way, I never said that you thought we could attain salvation in any way other than through the shed blood of Jesus CHrist.

My strong stance is against living a life of controlled behavior instead of a life submitted and led by the Holy Spirit. It just so happens that many attempt, as the Pharisees and Sadducees did, to follow those 10 Commandments and think they are pleasing God.

That just won't happen.

Yet our lives are to be lived in such a manner that we do not walk in sin, even in our hearts and minds, for that IS the teaching Jesus gave in the Sermon on the Mount and that is how we are to live.

I do not take isolated verses out of context buyt rather sweeping passages that show us what the context of those scriptures are referring to. I do NOT base any doctrine on 1 or 2 verses but rather on ALL the verses that speak on the subject.

Are we subject to the LAW of God? YES! Are we to Follow a list of rules? NO!

For if we do not live that same kind of life that Jesus lived directly from our hearts, then all we are doing is controlled behavior and our hearts are just as filthy as the Pharisees hearts were.

Our hearts MUST be COMPLETELY CLEANSED from ALL filthiness and UNCLEANNESS. Then we wil naturally fulfill the righteous requirements of God's Law for we will be led by the Holy Spirit and walk in obedience to Him. Is not the Holy Spirit God? Are not His commands being obedient to the commands of God?

Will He at ANY TIME lead us to VIOLATE God's Righteous way? NO! and that is how we are to live always live our lives, NOT in legalism but rather from a PURE HEART that is UNDIVIED from devotion to the Lord Jesus Christ. We walk in obedience from faith in Him and Love of Him.

NOT out of obligation.

I do not love my wife from any obligation. No one has a list of rules that I follow that tells me how to love my wife. I love her. Because the Lord has changed me and put His love in me for her and others, I live a life that comes directly from my heart without considering if I should do this or that and not do this nor that.

I love my wife like Jesus loved the Church, giving His life for her. So I do the very same, NOT because I conform my behavior to those words written in Eph 5, but because Jesus wrote them on my heart and I naturally do them, it is normal for me to love her in this manner. If I did not treat her in that manner, something would be very strange indeed.

So that is how we are to live in Christ, in the same manner, because our hearts have been cleansed from ALL uncleanness and ALL filthiness, and ALL corruption, and replaced with the very nature of Jesus Christ.

If that has NOT occured, then we need to seek Him and consecrate ourselves to Him and repent from any sin we have held back, never going back to again, and utterly submit our lives to Him then TRUST HIM to cleanse us from the corrupt, carnal nature with its passions and lusts.

I hope and pray you do understand. If you unsure or have other questions, please ask. BUT DO NOT ASSUME ANYTHING.

If you think you know, ask first, for I have found most people make amny assumptions about these things from what they have heard in their lives and just think they understand, when in fact, they err.

God bless you!

a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

 2007/11/11 11:39









 Re:

Hi Dirk

I like your writing, though the first post was a bit long - I nearly didn't read it because it was too late last night. Tonight I have more mental energy!

It might be best if you and Wildbranch first clarify what you each mean by "mainstream Christianity", because I suspect you don't quite mean the same thing. Would "[i]orthodox[/i] Christianity" be nearer your meaning, Wildbranch?

What Dirk writes may not be "mainstream" in the sense that it's not what most of those who are called "Christians" understand or practice.

But it is certainly [i]Biblical[/i] Christianity.

Thank you for putting it so clearly.

Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/11/11 13:36
wildbranch
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138


 Re:


Bndslave wrote,-----"How many times do we need to be told that observance of any part of the Law does us no good at all?...Not only does following the Law do us no good, but we are told that if we do follow these written rules, then we are separated from Christ Jesus and have fallen from grace".

Yes LittleGift, I think you are right! I am asking bndlsave if his views represent Orthodox Christianity. I do so because I personally know of many within mainstream Christianity who would disagree with his statements as quoted above.
_________________________________________________

Bndslave asked me--------"Did Jesus fulfill the Law? Yes or no?

The answer is yes!--- He said He came NOT TO ABOLISH the law, but to fulfill it. The rest of that passage goes on to affirm that, where He says that we are not to relax even the least of the commandments and teach men so.

Yeshua the Messiah was the one who demonstrated to the world a perfectly obedient life and absolute devotion to his God and Father, FULFILLING all aspects of the law . (not abolishing).

Bndslave, thank you for taking my questions. I would just repeat some, and ask you to address these words of scripture when weighed up against those such as----- quote: "Not only does the Law do us no good, but we are told that if we do follow these written rules, then we are separated from Christ Jesus and have fallen from grace"------------Here they are again...

"Rev 12:17 says, "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of the God, and have the testimony of Yeshua Messiah".....

--------Why is the dragon trying to destroy those who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Yeshua?

and ........"Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Yeshua." (Revelation 14:12)

--------Why is there a call here in the closing chapters of the bible for the endurance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Yeshua, if these are, as you say, 'no good at all....and if we do keep the commandments, then we are separated from Christ Jesus and have fallen from grace....'

-------There seems to be a great dichotomy here-------

When the He writes His laws on our hearts by the Spirit of God, he enables us to joyfully run after the ways of the Father with such freedom and grace and joy, just as He promised! If they are not written on our hearts, it will be a tablet of stone which one would find too odious and burdensome to even consider.

Bndslave, I agree with your words here: "Are not His commands being obedient to the commands of God?" -----Yes they are!

 2007/11/11 14:18Profile









 Re:

Quote:

wildbranch wrote:
Bndslave wrote, amongst other things----------..."How many times do we need to be told that observance of any part of the Law does us no good at all?...Not only does following the Law do us no good, but we are told that if we do follow these written rules, then we are separated from Christ Jesus and have fallen from grace!...

That's what the Bible says, (Galatians 5:4) so what’s your problem? Paul is simply pointing out that we can live by the rigid letter of the Law, which condemns us if we fail to keep it, or we can live by the grace and power of Christ living in us. But we can't do both!

Of course the 10 commandments do us no good, if we struggle to keep them in our own strength, because we will always fail. The Commandments haveno power to save, instead they condemn us because we can’t keep them!

Wildbranch, can I ask what concepts like the New Birth, the New Covenant and "the Lord our righteousness" mean to you? I wonder if they could be at the heart of the misunderstanding. I'm really puzzled why you seem to misunderstand so much of what has been said.

Quote:
Do you also agree with those who have abolished the Ten Commandments from schools and courthouses throughout North America, seeing that you believe they 'do us no good at all'???

Why should you imagine from his writing that Dirk agrees with that?

Quote:
Bndslave-------your reply seems to indicate (wrongly), that I think one can attain righteousness without coming to salvation through the blood of Yeshua. I believe firmly that Yeshua is our salvation (His name alone indicates that!).

Again that shows a total misunderstanding. No-one is against the Ten Commandments, the point is that the Ten Commandments is against us!

Setting us free from that condemnation [i][u][b]is[/b][/u][/i] the "salvation through the blood of Yeshua". That is [i][u][b]the very reason why He is our Salvation - because He is our Righteousness, and the Fulfillment of the Law in us[/b][/u][/i]! Fulfillment of the Law that we have broken!

How can you accuse Dirk of denying that Salvation - when in fact he's very strongly affirming it?

Quote:
-------There seems to be a great dichotomy here-------

The selective quotes you chose from the apostle Paul's writings, seem to contradict the Messiah's own words and those of other NT writers...

"Seem to Contradict..."???

Paul's words (quoted) are supported by the whole of the rest of Scripture, especially Jesus' sayings!

Quote:
The apostle Peter did warn us about those who would twist Paul's writings to their own destruction.

Yes, so who is doing that? Paul’s meaning is plain and there is no dichotomy whatsoever!

Quote:
Bndslave said----------"Once we are truly changed on the INSIDE, there will be NO CONFLICT with our desires and the will of God; they will be the same. (obviously that means our desires will have COMPLETELY CHANGED, for God changes not!) --------------[b]I agree fully with your statement there![/b]

So why do you fail to agree with the rest of what has been said, which explains and confirms this last part quoted? :-? The last part makes no sense without the rest...


Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/11/11 14:20
wildbranch
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138


 Re:

LittleGift said--------quote: "I'm really puzzled why you seem to misunderstand so much of what has been said."

LittleGift, I am puzzled how such strong statements against the Ten Commandments can be supported. I have shown how they contradict the words of Yeshua himself and many other scriptures. No one is saying that one has to keep the commandments to obtain salvation (that has been clearly stated), but after obtaining the salvation freeely given by Yeshua, the keeping of the commandments is what we WANT to do. And we will not "fall from grace" etc if we do.

And that is why I agree with Bndslaves comment,quote: "----------"Once we are truly changed on the INSIDE, there will be NO CONFLICT with our desires and the will of God; they will be the same. (obviously that means our desires will have COMPLETELY CHANGED, for God changes not".

We will automatically desire to fulfill all His commandments because of our change of heart, and we would not reject His commandments. In fact, 'the dragon' is seeking those who would obey His commandments in the book of Revelation, showing that that is the desire of the Evil one, to get us to reject and abolish the Father's Commandments!

Hope that helps!

 2007/11/11 14:56Profile









 Re:

Dear Wildbranch,

I have not spoken against the 10 commandments but rather our attempt to follow them. The commandments are good, BUT they are only a shadow or the reality that is found in Christ Jesus.

If we try to obey them, then we will become legalistic, and very much like the Pharisees.

However, if we allow the LORD to completely cleanse us from our old corrupt, carnal nature with its passions and lusts, then let Jesu sresurrect His nature within us, we will be children of the King and our natural reactions will be the same as Jesus.

This does NOT mean there will not be temptations; this does NOT mean we will NEVER sin again, THOUGH sin should be a rarity in our lives, but we can now choose to be led by the Holy Spirit in everything that is pleasing to the Father is SPIRIT and in TRUTH!

We will single hearted and not double-minded any longer.

This idea is all through the New Testament if we are willing to lay aside our pre-conceived notions and ideas and anything man (INCLUDING OURSELVES) has ever taught us.

We are NOT to rely on our own understanding for it is very feeble and cannot comprehend the ways of God UNLESS we are taught by the HOLY SPIRIT.

I do NOT speak against obedience to the Lord and His commands at all. Yet IF we try to obey those rules, we are only controlling our behavior not allowing the Lord to change our hearts.

I hope that helps you.

a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk

 2007/11/11 15:14





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