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reformer
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Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 764


 Confused about Pietism?

I read an article by Bob De Waay about Pietism, I am so what confused. What is it exactly? He mentioned the holiness movement? What is that?

Quote:
[b]"God is committed to the holiness of everyone He has redeemed. He makes them holy through His ordained means of grace. Paul warned both the Galatians and the Colossians against adding anything to the work of Christ: “As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him” (Colossians 2:6); “Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?” (Galatians 3:3). This means that salvation is by grace through faith and sanctification is by grace through faith. There is no secret principle to be discovered that creates higher order Christians."[/b]



First let me say I am not trying to attack or tear down this article. There are many members on SI that are full wisdom and knowledge...just wanted to make that clear.

Isn't it a good thing to pursue holiness and the process of sanctification? Going to your prayer closet for whatever amount of time seeking the face of God and His Glory? I guess I read this and understand it as, don't pursue holiness or a deeper walk with the Lord, it will take on its self through grace.

We willingly have to say no to things that are potentially hazard to the believer if we desire to be holy; so by abstaining from things, isn't that an act of pietism? If decide that watching movies that are not good for me in my walk and because I desire holiness...then I shouldn't watch them-right? Thats were I am confused. What is an act of pietism and how does it differ from place my body under submission?

Blessings
Mike

Here is the rest of the article:http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue101.htm

 2007/11/8 16:44Profile
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re: Confused about Pietism?

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pietism]This might help?[/url]


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CHRISTIAN

 2007/11/8 17:15Profile
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re: Confused about Pietism?

Pietism is dangerous due to the fact that it makes a person look inward for proof of their salvation. it is the attitude that says we must be getting better everyday or else we are not really born again.

In essence it is not much different than the Roman Catholic idea of grace infused or put into a person that he or she must co-operate with and become more and more righteous to prove their justification. In the modern Evangelical Church, we have this same view for the most part, God enables us by the Spirit, but justification is depending on our yieldedness, and progression in our walk.

The danger in this is that Christ then is not who saves us, but rather we ourselves. We work for our salvation, and earn it by our sanctification. This then creates the idea of a "higher life", or a "second blessing" all based around what I do, and not on what Christ has done for me.

None of us is greater than another, if we are saved, we are saved by the same blood, and birthed by the same Spirit. We are all justified on the merits of Christ and for His sake we are allowed entrance into Heaven.

Here is an article that you may find helpful

[url=http://web.archive.org/web/20030213032802/modernreformation.org/mr92/novdec/mr9206justification.html]Reclaiming The Doctrine Of Justification [/url]


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patrick heaviside

 2007/11/8 18:13Profile
hulsey
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Joined: 2006/7/5
Posts: 640
Missouri

 Re:

One thing that might help; there's a difference between being "pious" and "pietism." A pious Christian is pious because of his faith in Christ, while a pietist bases his relationship in Christ by his experience, a somewhat mystical form of works/righteousness.

It's subtle, but I don't base my relationship with Christ on what I've done, or am doing, but what He has done. Yes I do works, but for the purpose of godliness, not to achieve godliness. I am as righteous as I'll ever be in Christ Jesus.

A Pietist sees the holy life of a Christian and seeks to emulate that by some means other than faith, at least true faith.


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SI Moderator - Jeremy Hulsey

 2007/11/8 18:46Profile
poet
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Joined: 2007/2/16
Posts: 231
Longview WA

 Re:

we are always to examine ourselves..
We should look back and see the fruit that Christ has produced in us.
Not as if we have already obtained but striving forward as to win a race.
The Gate is narrow, strive to get through the narrow gate.
If you love ME, keep my commandments...
Abide in Christ, and bear fruit for the Glorification of the Father.
Beware of the teachings of the nicolations....
Be ye holy, as he is holy.
Without holiness no one shall see the lord.
He makes us holy, as long as we by being responsive to the Holy Spirit, will realize our faults, and Repent , confess and he will be faithful and Just to forgive us our transgressions.
Never think you have arrived, stay humble , stay holy, and he will make you holy, declare you righteous, as long as you abide in him, and make him your lord, and he will be your saviour aswell.


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howard

 2007/11/8 19:46Profile
reformer
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Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 764


 Re:

Quote:

hulsey wrote:
One thing that might help; there's a difference between being "pious" and "pietism." A pious Christian is pious because of his faith in Christ, while a pietist bases his relationship in Christ by his experience, a somewhat mystical form of works/righteousness.

It's subtle, but I don't base my relationship with Christ on what I've done, or am doing, but what He has done. Yes I do works, but for the purpose of godliness, not to achieve godliness. I am as righteous as I'll ever be in Christ Jesus.

A Pietist sees the holy life of a Christian and seeks to emulate that by some means other than faith, at least true faith.



Thanks...that makes sense to me. Simple without that jargon!

 2007/11/8 20:22Profile
reformer
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Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 764


 Re:

Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pietism]This might help?[/url]



always forget about that website

Thanks

 2007/11/8 20:29Profile
reformer
Member



Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 764


 Re:

Quote:

roaringlamb wrote:
Pietism is dangerous due to the fact that it makes a person look inward for proof of their salvation. it is the attitude that says we must be getting better everyday or else we are not really born again.

In essence it is not much different than the Roman Catholic idea of grace infused or put into a person that he or she must co-operate with and become more and more righteous to prove their justification. In the modern Evangelical Church, we have this same view for the most part, God enables us by the Spirit, but justification is depending on our yieldedness, and progression in our walk.

The danger in this is that Christ then is not who saves us, but rather we ourselves. We work for our salvation, and earn it by our sanctification. This then creates the idea of a "higher life", or a "second blessing" all based around what I do, and not on what Christ has done for me.

None of us is greater than another, if we are saved, we are saved by the same blood, and birthed by the same Spirit. We are all justified on the merits of Christ and for His sake we are allowed entrance into Heaven.

Here is an article that you may find helpful

[url=http://web.archive.org/web/20030213032802/modernreformation.org/mr92/novdec/mr9206justification.html]Reclaiming The Doctrine Of Justification [/url]



So would you say Luther was a pietist? What little I do know is that he lived to proof or in debt to God. He then later understand through it was by faith we are justified not by works. So he could be one example of someone who might have been a piestist?

 2007/11/8 20:33Profile
reformer
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Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 764


 Re:

Quote:
The danger in this is that Christ then is not who saves us, but rather we ourselves. We work for our salvation, and earn it by our sanctification. This then creates the idea of a "higher life", or a "second blessing" all based around what I do, and not on what Christ has done for me.



Let make sure I am understand this, the person could feel they need to do works according to be saved? Such as in the book of James. I will show you my faith, by my works. But the other person may say, I have faith, but no works.

Then can't a person say, I have been justified and live under the grace and righteousness in Christ and then not pursue the working out his salvation?

Wilkerson told a young man that wanted to help in his ministry years ago. Wilkerson asked the man how much a pray a day...the boy replied 20 minutes...Wilkerson then told him to go and come back when he is praying 2 hours a day. Now couldn't that be determined as a pietist act, this young man would more than likely try to pray in such a way and quite possibly be discouraged.

The sermons of the great preachers on SI, encourage mighty prayer and long study times, not for the reason to impress themselves or others; but grow are relationship with the Lord.

Another example, when I was courting my wife in the beginning. I spent time with her, I made time to be with her, I wanted to get to know her. I had to make time to do so. Our relationship changed she began to know me and I her, we both changed and conformed to another.(mind and heart!!!) If I want to know Jesus more, I would have to make time in knowing Him. I may get up in the mornings early or stay up late. I would try to separate myself as much as I can from the things of the world; we can't have to masters. I guess it really comes to if a person feels like they have to spend time with Christ or if that desire is that they get to.

Sorry I have such a analytical mind. Who knows may be the Lord is trying to tell me something.

 2007/11/8 21:02Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Wilkerson told a young man that wanted to help in his ministry years ago. Wilkerson asked the man how much a pray a day...the boy replied 20 minutes...Wilkerson then told him to go and come back when he is praying 2 hours a day. Now couldn't that be determined as a pietist act, this young man would more than likely try to pray in such a way and quite possibly be discouraged.



How much a person prays is not a qualification for ministry. If a man is not called to be in public ministry(I am assuming this was the case) he may pray all he wishes, but God must call and equip those whom He has called.

In effect everyone of us is in ministry whether in our homes, schools, or jobs. We are to be ambassadors for Christ.

I was not there, so I don't know all the issues surrounding this. I don't think Brother Wilkerson was telling this man to pray more to be saved, or maintain his salvation. Christ has saved us, not our works, and we don't need to work in order to be saved, but we do works because we are saved. You knew that though.;-)

Quote:
The sermons of the great preachers on SI, encourage mighty prayer and long study times, not for the reason to impress themselves or others; but grow are relationship with the Lord.



Yes, but it is when one does these acts to be accepted by God, or to think that they better than anyone else. This is when it becomes dangerous.

The main problem I see is that people confuse justification and sanctification. They make justification out to be based on how they are progressing in their sanctification which is a life long process.




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patrick heaviside

 2007/11/8 23:26Profile





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