CARNALITY VS SPIRITUALITY

Taker -Taken
Assumes - Assured
Complains- Constrained
Contentious- Content
Competes- Concrete
Being Overcome- Overcoming
Given To Change- Living Changed
Divisive- Decisive
Trust The Visible- Trust The Invisible
Looks For Opportunity- Looks To Importunity
Independent- Dependent
Lives By Fearing-- Lives By Hearing
Lives by Feeling – Lives by Faith
Need to be taught – Are able to teach
Wants To Survive- Wants To Submit
Needs Excitement- Heeds Exactness
Preference Oriented- Principle Oriented
Needs Alternative-- Heeds Ultimatum
Makes Demands- Takes Commands
Reacts – Responds
Luke Warm – HOT, HOT, HOT!!!
Me, Myself and I – No longer* I* but Christ.
Seeks it’s own – Seeks that of others
Baby’s cry when they don’t get their way or feel falsely accused – Jesus did not open His Mouth.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Hi Katy-did...

Are you attempting to consider those who feel the liberty to drink wine as falling under "carnality?"

Please consider the following:

All juice ferments. Fermentation is simply the natural process of sugar interacting with yeast to produce alcohol (usually ethyl). This process begins IMMEDIATELY, but usually cannot be detected by taste until about five to ten days following the picking of the grapes. Even today, unless something is done to prevent this fermentation during the first five to ten days, the juice (and even fruit) will begin to ferment. In the times of Christ, there weren’t any sort of dehumidifiers or air conditioners. There were caves in which juice could be stored at a temperature that could help curtail fermentation. However, these were not widely available, and only slightly curtailed the process. The longer the process is allowed, then the more alcohol will be produced. Since grapes are a seasonal fruit, the juice was often purchased and stored for long periods of time.

Red wine, the most prevalent in the Middle East at the time, ferments at warm temperatures. In fact, most wines are still produced this way (with the absence of synthetic ingredients meant to speed the fermentation process). However, beers and most hard liquors use synthetic methods to speed up the fermentation process or to increase the alcohol content. Still, with the absence of artificial preservatives or preservation methods, all fruits and juices will ferment.

To claim that God told us that Christ drank only unfermented wine is simply unrealistic. There is NOTHING in the Bible or in history to indicate this.

“New wine” was wine that was not purposely stored for the fermentation process. Since it lacked much of the long-term fermentation, it was the most readily available wine of the poor. However, it is STILL fermented wine. That is why we are warned about putting “new wine into old wineskins.” The drink is still undergoing the fermentation process, and will likely expand as the carbohydrates (sugar interacting with yeast) ferment. That is why they will eventually “burst” (as explained by Christ in Matthew 9:17, Mark 2:22 and Luke 5:37-39). While “new wine” doesn’t produce the sleep or drunken affect as rapidly, it is still fermented. If taken in large enough doses, it can be just as potent as aged wine. Besides, people preferred the “old wine” – probably because of conditions produced by the fermentation (Luke 5:39).

I once believed that drinking any wine is strictly forbidden by the Scriptures. After reading this matter for myself, I have become quite convinced that I was only acting according to the teachings of men that were part of a strict, more modern tradition. Perhaps this traditional “understanding” of wine was due to the affects that drunkenness has upon individuals. However, history seems quite clear that wine was common (and still is) in the Middle East. Somewhere in the last three to four hundred years, some church leaders seem to have taken a hard line stance on the issue. Even today, moderate wine consumption is still commonly accepted by believers in many parts of the world.

While I don’t see wine consumption as ultimately forbidden by the Scriptures, we might need to consider the ROOT of this issue. The Lord prohibits drunkenness. All of these human anecdotes provided here consider the cause of drunkenness – not alcohol. Alcohol does not cause destruction. People who take excess do.

Consider this:
[i]Does [u]music[/u] cause rebellion?[/i]
No, SATANIC music causes rebellion.
There are some great spiritual songs that can be used to worship or praise.

[i]Does [u]food[/u] cause obesity or heart disease?[/i]
No, it is often the gluttony of food causes obesity and heart disease.
Food, when used in proper moderation, provides sustenance.

[i]Does the [u]internet[/u] cause sexual sin?[/i]
No, it is lust that causes sexual sin.
While the internet is filled with sexually explicit pornographic websites, the internet can be used for spiritual and educational good, as reflected by SermonIndex.

[i]Is [u]sex[/u] a sin?[/i]
No, it is sex outside of the Bible’s principles that constitutes a sin.
Sex is the chosen method by which God joins a husband a wife. It is also the wonderful means by which God chose to procreate mankind and nearly all other living species.

[i]Does [u]wine[/u] kill people?[/i]
No, it is people who take an excess of wine that kill people.
When used in proper moderation, wine can be extremely beneficial.

Wine contains high amounts of antioxidant, which can be helpful to the health of the heart. Historically, wine has been used for culinary and medicinal purposes (including in the Bible).

It can be used as a sedative (Proverbs 31:6).
It can be used as an ingredient or an accompaniment to food (Deuteronomy 14:26).
It produces a pleasing aroma (Exodus 29:38-41).
It can be helpful for the stomach (I Timothy 5:23 – It [url=http://www.webmd.com/heartburn-gerd/news/20021230/with-beer-wine-stomachs-fine]kills bacteria[/url] in the stomach, such as the [i]Helicobacter pylori[/i] stomach “bug” that causes stomach ulcers).
It can also “gladden the heart” (Psalm 104:14-15 – the boost provided by antioxidants).
It can be used to revive (II Samuel 16:2 – probably due to the phenol concentrations in wine).
It was used to ease suffering (Mark 15:23; Matthew 27:34).
It, when combined with oil, was used to bind wounds (Luke 10:34).
In addition, the ethyl alcohol created by fermentation has the ability to warm the body. It has been used for centuries to warm those who were cold, and even saved the life a survivor of the Titanic, Charles Joughin, who later became a preacher.

The Word of God is clear that we should not abuse wine by using it to obtain drunkenness. Drunkenness is an inhibition-destroying condition makes man susceptible to other sins (or rapidly enhances the inner-nature of a person). Drunkenness leads to laziness, tale bearing, revealed secrets, lustful inhibitions, etc…

As I stated earlier, I don’t drink. This isn’t because I don’t feel that I have the liberty to drink, it is just that I don’t want to. I don’t like the taste of wine, even though I know quite a few people who do. I don’t buy the argument that abstinence from drinking wine is to prevent myself from becoming a stumbling block to others. I still use the internet, even though I know some people who are addicted to pornography. I still hold eat burgers and fries on occasion, even though I know some people who are addicted to gluttony. Of course, I would not want to become a stumbling block by offering wine to another brother who is tempted by drunkenness or excess.

We might want to be mindful of Paul’s warning to Timothy in I Timothy 4:

_________________
Christopher

Hey Krispy,

I thoroughly enjoyed your response here, because I shared your first few responses in my head, but I was wondering if I was the only one. :-o

I had not seen your post earlier, so I went back and read almost all three pages, and I must say, you were dead on accurate with what you said.

I think you and I may share more of the same beliefs than we earlier realized. 8-) We're cool like that!

I did not see any place where you directed everything upon Julian. You did call him out on a few things, but it was very kindly, and done quite well. I in no way thought that any kind of malice or bad intent or attitude was directed at anybody.
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Now Katydid, you're not married to Julian are you? Because the way you defended him and attacked Krispy was quite remarkable to me.

I mean this in all sincerity, what you posted about Krispy in this forum was a direct attack on him. Exactly what you were accusing him of doing to Julian. (Which he did not do.)

Your response here has absolutely nothing to do with any topic being discussed in this thread, so I must ask, what was your purpose?

Was it to expose how sinful and fleshly Krispy is? If so, then it shows only your lack of knowing anything about him.

His post this morning showed his patience in meditating on this issue until he knew how to address it. It was a difficult task, and he did it quite well.

I must agree with Krispy when he says, "there is no love in your response."
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All that said, the topic at hand is wine.

It has already been shown that Jesus himself drank wine, Paul told Timothy to drink some wine, wine was the choice drink of the day.

The Bible does not forbid wine, and Jesus said there would be wine at his own wedding feast.

Why is everyone fighting so hard to say different than the Bible?

Is anyone who is posting authority higher than scripture?

Anyone who disagrees with this stuff, has no grounds in which to do so. You may not do it, but you have no right to say that others can't, that is firstly legalism, and secondly it is just blindness.

_________________
Benjamin Williams

I said: