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 Re:




I found that God feels the same way about adultery as He does fornication. The word fornication though is not in the law. Niether does it anywhere in the law describe it as something that happens only before you get married.

 2007/11/21 0:30









 Re:

I found the two definitions in the bible for fornication. How would you interpret this? Esau is described as a fornicator:


DEFINITION #1:

Hebrews 12:16
Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

Genesis 25:30-34
30And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.

31And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright.

32And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?

33And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob.

34Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright.


HERE IS DEFINITION #2:

1 Corinthians 10:6-8

6Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

7Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

8Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

Exodus 32:1-10

Exodus 32
1And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

2And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.

3And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.

4And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

5And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD.

6And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.

7And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:

8They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

9And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

10Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.


This is fornication:
34Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles;[color=0000FF] and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way:[/color]

What happened in Genesis with Esau was not even about marriage it was about a birthright. In the new testament the bible is using this passage of scripture to describe what fornication is. It says nothing here about before marriage only. This is sexual immorality.

Numbers 25:1-9

The bible describes this type of fornication as whoredom. It doesn't say anything about these people not being married who commited this whoredom:

Numbers 25
1And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab.

2And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods.

3And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel.

4And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.

5And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor.

6And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

7And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand;

8And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.

9And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.

THEY ALSO KILLED THE PRINCES AND JUDGES.


Fornication with God's people continued throughout the old testament:

2 Chronicles 21:11,Isaiah 23:17,
Ezekiel 16:15,Ezekiel 16:26,Ezekiel 16:29,



I agree with you Linn, I just want to back this up with scripture.

 2007/11/21 5:27









 Re:

I'm still not 100% on this. Thoughts anyone?...

 2007/11/21 8:21









 Re:

One more thing... :-) Maybe someone could answer this for me. Someone told me that the Jewish people considered those they were betrothed to as thier wives. Can you tell me where they got that information from?

 2007/11/21 9:01
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

Definition of Fornication from Dictionary.com:
1. voluntary sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons or two persons not married to each other.

Glorytoglory , fornication even in the two contexts listed was sexual, it had nothing to do with the food.

Why was Esau a fornicator?

Could it be that he took Canaanite women to be his wives, then married one of his cousins?

Quote:
Gen 26:34,35 And Esau was forty years old when he took to wife Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Bashemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite: Which were a grief of mind unto Isaac and to Rebekah.

Quote:
Gen 28:8,9 And Esau seeing that the daughters of Canaan pleased not Isaac his father; Then went Esau unto Ishmael, and took unto the wives which he had Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael Abraham's son, the sister of Nebajoth, to be his wife.



There is a good posibility that Esau had sexual relations either with these women before he married them, or with others... I think that is what his label as fornicator indicates.

In the case of the 1 Cor 10:8 example of fornication, that is refering directly to a plague in the OT in Numbers 25 that had nothing to do with eating and drinking and everything to do with sex outside of marriage.
Quote:
Numbers 25
1And Israel abode in Shittim, [b]and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab[/b].

2And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods.

3[b]And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor[/b]: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel.

4And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.

5And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were [b]joined unto Baalpeor[/b].

6And, [b]behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses[/b], and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

7And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand;

8[b]And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly[/b]. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.

9And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.



I think the case is very clear as to what fornication is.




_________________
Ian Smith

 2007/11/21 11:00Profile









 Re:

Quote:

iansmith wrote:

Why was Esau a fornicator?

Could it be that he took Canaanite women to be his wives, then married one of his cousins?
Quote:
Gen 26:34,35 And Esau was forty years old when he took to wife Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Bashemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite: Which were a grief of mind unto Isaac and to Rebekah.

Quote:
Gen 28:8,9 And Esau seeing that the daughters of Canaan pleased not Isaac his father; Then went Esau unto Ishmael, and took unto the wives which he had Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael Abraham's son, the sister of Nebajoth, to be his wife.



There is a good posibility that Esau had sexual relations either with these women before he married them, or with others... I think that is what his label as fornicator indicates.

In the case of the 1 Cor 10:8 example of fornication, that is refering directly to a plague in the OT in Numbers 25 that had nothing to do with eating and drinking and everything to do with sex outside of marriage.
Quote:




Don't you think that would be reading into it a bit? What do you think of how God refers to his people as fornicators here:

2 Chronicles 21:11, Isaiah 23:17,
Ezekiel 16:15,Ezekiel 16:26,Ezekiel 16:29


 2007/11/21 13:45









 Re: TIME Magazine: "An Evangelical Rethink of Divorce?"


Quote:
Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau

If you look at this bit of the sentence, this is about a fornicator [u]or[/u] a profane person.

It is not applying fornication to Esau. The condemnation against Esau was his profanity ... which is then described... his totally missing the value of being blessed by God because he was firstborn.

The best definition of fornication is the idolatries described in Lev 18. Notice how at the end of the chapter, God repeats [u] five times[/u] what will happen if they worship idols.

By the time we get to the New Testament, there is an assumption in scripture that everyone in Israel knows what is meant by fornication or adultery. This is clear also from the precision with which the gospel writers note the changes Jesus made to their previous practices.

 2007/11/21 15:44
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

Quote:
Don't you think that would be reading into it a bit? What do you think of how God refers to his people as fornicators here:

2 Chronicles 21:11, Isaiah 23:17,
Ezekiel 16:15,Ezekiel 16:26,Ezekiel 16:29

2 Chronicles 21:11 [i]Moreover he made high places in the mountains of Judah and caused the inhabitants of Jerusalem to commit fornication, and compelled Judah thereto[/i].

Other translations:
ASV 'made the inhabitants of Jerusalem to play the harlot'
ESV 'led the inhabitants of Jerusalem into whoredom'
NASB 'caused the inhabitants of Jerusalem to play the harlot'
NIV 'caused the people of Jerusalem to prostitute themselves'

This instance of 'fornication in the KJV is understood by almost every modern bible translator to be in reference to sexual sin commited by the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

One thing to mention about 'high places' is often these high places were temples to other gods, or shrines where pagan rituals were performed. Often 'shrine prostitutes' both male and female were found at these places. So the transition from saying 'he made high places' to 'they prostituted themselves' is not a hard connection.

++++

Isaiah 23:17 [i]And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth[/i].

This is a prophesy concerning the future of the city of Tyre. Tyre was at this time a great trading city, and was very wealthy. As a trade city she needed to have partnerships with other world powers, nations and kingdoms in order to continue to thrive. Isaiah is saying that the city will become a 'virtual' prostitute to these other nations... that it will do anything for their trade, for their money.

Prophesy translation by Ian: Tyre, a once great and mighty city will be nothing more than a whore to other kingdoms. It will have the appearance of wealth and success, but be rotting from VD.

++++

Ezekiel 16:15 [i]But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was[/i].

This chapter of Ezekiel starts this way: [i]Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations[/i]

What is the purpose of this prophesy by Ezekiel? It is to point out how Israel has gone astray. In verse 15 Ezekiel likens Israel to to a harlot (a whore). What do harlots do? Harlots commit adultery (also known as fornication). And more scathingly, Ezekiel accuses Israel with fornicating with everyone that passes by.

I am reminded of how God told Hosea to take a harlot (whore, prostitute) as a wife so that he could understand how He felt about Israel's indiscretion.

26 [i]Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger[/i].

In this instance Ezekiel could either be talking about physical relations with the people of Egypt, which would explain 'great of flesh.' Or it could also be a spiritual alegory to fornication, that we have commited spiritual adultery with the religions, false gods and pagan practices of Egypt.

29 [i]Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied therewith[/i].

Israel, God's chosen people, who were supposed to bless those nations around them; a chosen priesthood and a holy nation... they were not only as bad as their neighbors, but actually caused increased corruption. This is a pretty harsh rebuke.


_________________
Ian Smith

 2007/11/21 15:51Profile
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

Quote:
If you look at this bit of the sentence, this is about a fornicator or a profane person.



Yeah, I was thinking the same thing as well, but I wanted to stick with one horse and run with it.


_________________
Ian Smith

 2007/11/21 15:53Profile
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:
Someone told me that the Jewish people considered those they were betrothed to as thier wives. Can you tell me where they got that information from?



Well, the NT example of that would be: Mt. 1:18-24. Joseph thought to "put away" Mary during their betrothal because she was found with child (while she was still in her father's house), before he took her as his wife.

Here's a couple of websites that touch on the betrothal custom in regards to Jesus' teachings in Mt. 19:9

www.marriagedivorce.com
http://www.cadz.net/mdr.html


_________________
Cindy

 2007/11/21 16:05Profile





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