reading through this I thought of these words from Scripture:
"Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."
[i]the axe is laid unto the root [/i]
Having a Christian name means nothing.
Christopher Joel Dandrow
| 2007/11/7 6:10||Profile|
I'm just amazed it took them this long to figure this out. Maybe instead of reading all those books about corporate management, they should have been reading the Bible. It's the best Book on church growth ever written.
And I dont see anyone in that article repenting. They were just stating that many of the programs they had werent working. Big deal. Companies do that all the time.
Some of this article tho was encouraging. Just surprised they didnt "get it" before now.
| 2007/11/7 9:28|
Like any Pastor, or anyone of us for that matter when your life has no spiritual significance, you'll try anything to jump start something. And after lives have been invested into a system that wasn't working for them, it's kind of too late to reverse gears, because thousands if not millions of people have been indoctrinated. Many upon hearing Hybils repent may just end up forsaking Christ altogether. Nothing any worse than a leader of a large organization begin to rethink his theology. It's like as if Paul would have said after he established Churches begin to doubt that the letters that he sent out were even truth. I would have shuddered if those words would have passed from his lips. But thankfully they did not.
For Bill Hybils, the bad seeds have already been sown, they've been planted, it's too late. It would have been better if he had said nothing to anyone and kept it quiet, repented before God, asked the LORD for direction and re-teach the people by incorporating truth. A little bit of truth here and there will eventually kill off the leaven.
(Just an FYI, Salt directly in contact with yeast slows down production of leavening activity and eventually make it of non effect)
Mark 9:50 .... Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.
| 2007/11/7 16:14|
My prayer is that the Lord will open the eyes of many to the deception and dangers of these apostate man-centered (seeker-sensitive, purpose-driven, emergent church) movements. While much damage has been done, there are many who can be snatched from the fire (see Jude 20-23).
There are three major symptoms that characterize apostasy: (1)apostates depart from the Word of God - they replace theology with philosophy, (2) apostates defile themselves with the world - hence the man-centered approach, and (3) apostates deceive themselves with their works - they judge according to appearance using pragmatism as their standard for determining truth (see Hosea 8:1-14).
These man-centered apostate movements have their roots in Pelagianism and can be easily traced to the "father of the Mega-church movement" - Robert Schuller.
Listen to this sermon if you get a chance.
Grace and peace
| 2007/11/9 15:09||Profile|
I wanted to fan the flame of hope here abit... Roadsign was actively seeking to see the merit in Bill's Hybel's recent admission.
True, they have a long way to go, and dont seem to have arrived at the core problem: the human bent to trust in religion and self instead of God
In some ways, it could be faithfully said that they don't have that far to go at all. Behold I stand at the door and knock. That is to say, I've never known real repentence to be a gradual process as much as it is a genuine response.
For instance consider this quote from a recent article on the proliferation of
[url=http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/07/arts/music/07prais.html?ex=1195016400&en=b96ced0ce9a830f9&ei=5065&partner=MYWAY]seeker-sensitive rock bands[/url].
Dressed in a faded black T-shirt, jeans and skateboard sneakers, he bent his shaved head. God, he said, I hope these songs we sing will be much more than the music. I know its so difficult at times when were thinking about chords and lyrics and when to hit the right effect patch, but would you just help that to become second nature, so that we can truly worship you from our heart?
I believe this young man is mistaking his desire to play music for worship. Thus he feels that despite his surrender, something beyond his control is hindering him from worshipping God from his heart. (I know, because I remember this prayer well...) In truth, if this musician really wanted to worship God from his heart, he could simply unplug his technocratic schemes and get to it.
Even our yearning prayers can reveal our idolatry. The Lord has not made it difficult to worship him...we have.
Now as an organization, Willow Creek might indeed have to go through a process, like turning the Titanic away from the Iceberg. There are new coordinates to be determined, new values and mission statements to be debated, new by laws and organizational restructuring. But we shouldn't suggest that passengers aboard the ship need worry about all that. The real question here might be whether the captain loves his people more then his ship. (It might not be that he trusts in religion so much as he trusts in infrastructure.) The right captain might order the passengers to be transferred to a more sea worthy vessel. Besides, it's the people inside the ship that is the first order of duty for a captain, not the engineering marvel itself.
Soometimes we needn't wait for an iceberg. When a ship is dicovered to be defunct or unsafe, we scuttle. This is perhaps the surest way to prevent harm coming to passengers.
Just my thoughts.
| 2007/11/9 18:50||Profile|
Now as an [b]organization,[/b] Willow Creek might indeed have to go through a process, like turning the Titanic away from the Iceberg. There are new coordinates to be determined, new values and mission statements to be debated, new by laws and [b]organizational restructuring.[/b]
Brother, let me give you my opinion on this subject, based on your example of Titanic. Brother, I don't believe that this is case of [i]"turning the boat away from the Iceberg"[/i], but totally missing the boat! Wrong boat, instead of going to "South Africa", you (not you personally) have missed the boat and you go now to "USA", and you are reasoning now, "Well, we needed to arrive in north cost, and now we made mistake and probably we will arrive in south cost, it's ok, we will go by bus to the other cost!" And you are not realizing that you have missed the whole continent!
What I think is that passengers need to get out from the boat, and get in to the other boat, that is going to right direction. New foundation.
And I emphasize the word "organization". The church is not called to be in bondage of organization, but to be organism.
Organization is artificial and human made.
Organism is living body and God made.
Organization depends on men.
Organism depends on God.
The church is the Body of Christ. The Body functions naturally. You don't need artificial and human made things and programs to keep it.
When you put organism into bondage of the organization, the result is death of the organism, because it cannot live naturally there. It is depended on other things, besides those of God. The Church is depended just from God and His mercies and provisions for everything.
I think this quotes is staggering:
If the Holy Spirit was withdrawn from the church today, 95 percent of what we do would go on and no one would know the difference. If the Holy Spirit had been withdrawn from the New Testament church, 95 percent of what they did would stop, and everybody would know the difference.
One hundred religious persons knit into a unity by careful organizations do not constitute a church any more than eleven dead men make a football team. The first requisite is life, always.
These are some thoughts brother, feel free to share yours on them!
Thank you and God bless you,
| 2007/11/9 19:20||Profile|
Good thoughts Kire.
| 2007/11/9 23:53||Profile|
What I think is that passengers need to get out from the boat, and get in to the other boat, that is going to right direction.
Well, if the institutional church is the wrong boat, then so is the entire world and we cant get off of it - except by death! Even that doesnt get us on the right boat. (I include this comment, not in response to anyone here particularly, but towards the all-too-common mistake that If I get out of the place physically ie, the institutional church I am safe.)
Now that we have diagnosed the right prescription for Hybels church, we also admit that none of us are in the position to actually TELL them what to do. Were not God. That is a very good thing! For indeed, we would wish to help them along and set fire to the entire infrastructure and expect a instantaneous unravelling of all misconceptions (some of which we ourselves may still have). Surely we can expect God to bring about a change in individual hearts through the rocky process of trials and failings. Some will get it, and, as is normal, the masses wont. Those will just construct another edifice to fulfil their expectations. Meanwhile, praise God for the voices out there who DO offer godly direction to the disilussioned. And, above all, praise God for his word and his Spirit. No one can deprive seekers of that!
I tried this once - as a teen. It was an attempt to keep my sister from watching TV when I needed to practise. Actually, I tried something better: cut the cord! Only I forgot to unplug it first!
.. After risking my life, my dad fixed the plug the next day, and my sister kept watching TV. So much for my measly efforts! Unplugging isnt always so simple. Sometimes we just have to wait for God to pull the plug. (Still, I hear ya, MC - there's a time to pull the plug - just not to force our will)
Speaking of boats, the first hurdle to overcome is the realization that there is indeed a right boat and a wrong boat:[url=http://www.quiteexcellent.com/thewayback.net/articles/cruise.htm]Destinational Cruise of a Lifetime[/url]
| 2007/11/10 7:38||Profile|
| Re: Bill Hybels repents of the Seeker-friendly method?!|
Here's the report from Christianity Today:
[url=http://blog.christianitytoday.com/outofur/archives/2007/10/willow_creek_re.html]Willow Creek Repents?[/url]
A feature by Todd Friel from Way of the Master Radio (it's roughly around the last third) :
[url=http://podcast.wayofthemasterradio.com/audio/podcasts/1107/WOTMR-11-05-07-Hour2.mp3]Way of the Master Radio, November 5, 2007, Hour 2[/url]
I've been wanting to comment here all week but didn't have the time. So here goes... I don't know how much repentance has gone on over this and if they truly have, then great! But when I went to the website what stuck out to me was that they've written yet ANOTHER book to sell to the masses, have conferences and makes millions and for who?
I hope that as huge as they are, they go out and help people in the Chicago community not just their members.
Jesus helped the majority of people who came to him and not all followed him. My point is if we only help those who follow us and give to us, then what good are we?
I don't think they've changed their seeker sensitive ways, they've created a different approach to the same thing. Read what Greg Hawkins wrote from the link above (except it's part 2)....
3. Is Willow Re-thinking its Seeker Focus?
Simple answer no. My boss would say that Willow is not just seeker-focused. We are seeker-obsessed. The power of REVEALs insights for our seeker strategy is the evangelistic strength uncovered in the more mature segments. If we can serve them better, the evangelistic potential is enormous, based on our findings.
The whole point from what I got from Bill Hybels video segment was that the "more mature segment" was they didn't feel they were being fed. Which is true. The seeker-sensitive church I went to for 4 years had a revolving door. People would come and stay a few years and then leave for no reason and when you'd talk to them later it was the same thing, "I was practically starving to death." We could have been a huge church with an old growth forest (in believers) had the pastor figured out that what people needed was spiritaul food, not being worked to death.
If I were a betting person, I'd say that might have been the basis for willow creeks research... finding out why the "more mature segment" was leaving in droves.
But that's just my opinion! What they need is ... well, we here at SI KNOW what they need to do but won't!! LOL
God bless us all as we seek Him!!!
| 2007/11/10 7:51|
the pastor figured out that what people needed was spiritaul food,
It would be worth going back a few years and remember the voices that said: The church is overfed (Bible knowledge), and needs to start pracising what it knows. I remember a well- respected (godly) leader say: We don't need more of the Bible, we need more of Jesus!
(Let's admit, we were arrogant, proud of our Bible sword drills, memory contests, factual knowlege, five sylable doctinal terms, etc.)
How can we keep from flipping the pendulum back too far the other way again? (I suppose our postmodern aversion to propositional truth will prevent that possibility)
| 2007/11/10 8:17||Profile|