| Poster | Thread |
| | Re: | | Every group has been "persecuted", so persecution is not a sign of correctness.
To use that here and at the end of the last thread is non-substantial evidence.
All of this is why I posted on Nile's thread that after all that time of talking with Unitarians - if we don't get to using Scripture Only - this will go no where.
I refuse to use the writings of men except for Greek Grammar folks, when it comes to Doctrine - because I've found, either it's done with Scripture only or it's a major major waste of time and accomplishes nothing at all.
Posting websites back and forth or one's Authors against another's Authors, mean zero up in Heaven - where it really counts.
When we ever get down to a verse by verse examination of a doctrine - then we may get Heaven roused up enough to aid us.
He protects His Own Word because He is The Word of God.
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|  2007/11/4 14:25 | | Compton
Member
Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732
| | Re: | | This is an astonishing trend in the church. Like Robert has said, many younger saints are customizing their own gospel...with hardly more seriousness then mixing their own flavor of coffee at Starbucks. Quote:
Two weeks and a half weeks ago I first heard of non-trinitarianism. After a week (and enough reading to be a full-time job) I was convinced.
Really Nile...a week of reading was all it took to become convinced to deny a core tenet of your faith? Can you ever trust yourself again for being so unstable? Tears for Joy sobriety expresses well a serious concern. You are young...and there are greater challenges ahead to your faith then just a week's worth of pursuasive arguments in books.
Brother I find double-mindedness is an unfortunate pitfall to minds who are naturally quite bright and sensitive to other points of view. Especially on college campuses, where the mind is bombarded with articulate contrarian arguments constantly...some students experiment with drugs, some with politics, and some with philosophy and theology.
Yet some issues are so important that it is simply sophmorish to assume hasty positions and then dig our heels in. Yet, there are some saints who establish this restless pattern early in life...they spend thier days being tossed about by every doctrine that floats down the pike. They are earnest, always searching but never coming to any firm conclusions.
Young men and women of the faith...consider that many older saints have already been through the very same issues you are facing. Indeed, what seems modern is also ancient. In universities today, there is far too much maverick self-styled revisionism going on in history, economics, politics,...and Christian theology. The laziest intellectual trend today in the Church is to blame every doctrine or tradition we don't like on Constantine. Really this practice is quite a bore...we attribute more power and influence in our lives to a long dead king then to the risen Jesus himself! Eventually this maverick trend will have to level off...and people will have to accept responsibility for their own beliefs and character intead of laying all of their personal controversies at the feet of a long dead man.
Please Nile, consider taking a healthy rest from this entire controversy...resist cementing yourself so hastily into a position on an issue that will impact your faith and your character; don't overcook the roast on the outside before it's properly cooked on the inside.
MC
_________________
Mike Compton
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| | 2007/11/4 15:33 | Profile |
| | Re: Was God tempted to worship Satan? | | Hello Nile,
From time to time I've read parts of threads in which you are participating, and I understand it is very important for a young man and a young Christian, to have a sense of intellectual respectability over what he settles his heart and mind to believe. If you continue to do this honestly, with every intention of laying hold on truth and eternal life, God will honour your heart's desire to know Him first, above all other gods - whether they be gods you can pick up in your hand, or abstract concepts.
I've read this thread (but not the Unitarian one at all) and noticed a few things I could add, which have not been said. Some things, like defending the trinity, generally I would not attempt, as I tend towards lateral thinking and a belief that the Holy Spirit comes alongside those who read the word [Bible] genuinely hoping to hear from God, to interpret it to their understanding. Surely, by comparason, theology is man's attempt at codification of those truths, and the difficulty always comes when faith is required. But how else could one meet with an invisible God, whose work on earth is largely defined by the claims of a disparate group of people who claim to know Him, but cannot prove Him objectively to anyone else, except by the testimony of their lives?
He has made it so for a reason: that everyone who would know Him, would come on His terms and be severed from any fleshly advantage or claim, that He might be absolutely fair and judge all-comers on exactly the same basis.
As long as you are hoping to come away from Bible reading with a nice linear, academic precis, I fear you will be disappointed, and God may even withhold revelation from you, while you have any other agenda except to know Him alone.
There is a huge amount of truth lying on the surface of the page (of scripture) but it takes a ruthlessly honest (and at least 5 dimensional) approach, to begin to construct a framework you can describe to others. I say this not to put you off, but to convey the challenge of having such a mind open to God, that He Himself can reveal to our understanding, concepts and truth which are far from superficial, and which demand strict adherence to what the word does say. Only them may one have hope of being used by the Spirit to interpret scripture to others. Beware of settling for an understanding which satisfies the carnal minds of those who challenge your relatively new-found faith.
I have a friend who was delivered from a specific occult practice, whose presence, because of the Holy Spirit, interfered with that occult activity working, when next his friends tried it. They made a choice. They asked him to leave. He made a choice, and left.
What I have to say will run to another post or two... I hope that's ok. |
| | 2007/11/4 18:04 | | wildbranch
Member
Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138
| | Re: was God tempted to worship Satan? | | The saddest thing about this thread is that no one, besides Nile and myself, has stood up to say that our God, YHWH, [b]cannot be tempted by evil[/b]-----------tempted to sin through enticement and lust. The thread had the question: "Can God be tempted to worship Satan?" Rather than unequivicably refuting such a blasphemous claim, people have actually insisted that He can.
Speaking of Yeshua, the scripture says:
Mark 1:12-13 And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness. And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.
Mt 4:1-10 Then was Yeshua led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Hebrews 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Would someone within the camp of those who claim Yeshua is YHWH please explain how YHWH (the Eternal God of the Universe), who cannot be tempted with evil, was often tempted with evil?
The Holy Scriptures repeatedly describe the absolute, incomprehensible, unequalled perfection of the Eternal Father and that He is totally immune from temptation to do evil.
James 1:13 [b]Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:[/b]
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| | 2007/11/4 20:44 | Profile | BeYeDoers
Member
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Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN
| | Re: | | page 1. i answered this.
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Denver McDaniel
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| | 2007/11/4 21:09 | Profile | Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732
| | Re: | | Quote:
Some things, like defending the trinity, generally I would not attempt
Not to nit-pick here...but there is no need for us to defend the trinity; scripture reveals this reality quite plainly. This is not a transcendental secret that is whispered in our ear by the Holy Spirit, but was spoken, written, and printed in quite comprehensible language. Scriptures claims about Jesus, and Jesus' claims about himself, were clear enough to have warranted his death even by people who resisted the Holy Spirit.
Just who became incarnate to the first century world, is a repeated Old Testament promise, and New Testament confirmation that went far beyond the claims of Moses for the Jews, beyond the claims of Mohammed for the muslims, and beyond the claim of Gautama for the Buddhists.
Isaiah 9..."For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given...and his name shall be called...The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father...
Micah 5:2 "But thou Bethlehem...out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler of Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting...
Collossians 1 ...for by him all things were created...
Quote:
God may even withhold revelation from you
I recognize the intended understanding offered here Dorcas...but to treat Jesus' Godhood as a secret identity only knowable from mystical revelation is contrary to the intention of presenting scripture in a written message for all mankind. The issue is literally black and white...God has not withheld revelation from anyone on this central truth. Let's not miss the camels here while waiting to see some gnats. The Gospel is captured and conveyed to mankind not in man's transcedental experience but by God's condecension in human language. This may not be what guru's and sages expect, but it works quite well with simpletons and children.
Now we might agree that faith in what is plainly written might indeed be a gift from the Holy Spirit...but the Spirit's words upon the pages are plain enough even if the faith to believe them is lacking.
Wildbranch, this entire question of how could Jesus be tempted if we was also God, is hardly a stumper. Really sir, haven't you been paying attention to scripture? Does not Phillipians 2:6-8 make it clear that the incarnate Jesus was as much a man as he was God? We are told with almost elementary simplicity that 1)Jesus was in the form of God, 2) Jesus is equal with God, and 3) Jesus walked on Earth in the likeness of a man.
Look further into Isaiah 7:14. Behold a virgin shall concieve, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Here the twofold nature of the Messiah is indicated...he is to be born of a woman clearly not as some kind of paranormal being but as a normal human being...yet he is is also born as Immanuel which when interpreted is more then God with us, but one of us. Deny either aspect of this son born of a virgin and you deny this scripture.
Now how this works might indeed seem incomprehensible to you, Nile, and myself, but truth is not referenced by the conprehension of man but by every word that comes from God. If we agree that scripture indeed conveys those Words, the issue of just who was incarnate is hardly up for debate just because we might lack the faith to accept these words.
MC
_________________
Mike Compton
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| | 2007/11/4 21:12 | Profile |
| | Re: Was God tempted to worship Satan? | | Compton said
Quote:
God has not withheld revelation from anyone on this central truth ....The Gospel is captured and conveyed to mankind not in transcedental experience but by God's condecension in human language. This may not be what guru's and sages expect, but it works quite well with simpletons and children.
Mike, I think you know I was talking about the deeper revelation which comes from the Spirit as scripture is ingested for spiritual food, rather than merely scrutinised superficially for philosophical banter-fodder. Having said that, I do understand there are many philosophies to discard if one needs to examine them at all, and I completely agree with your analysis of how unmistakably deposited in the word, is the tri-unity of the Godhead.
Quote:
... truth is not referenced by the conprehension of man but by every word that comes from God. If we agree that scripture indeed conveys those Words, the issue of just [i]who[/i] was incarnate is hardly up for debate ...
Thank you for your muted intolerance to any thought that scripture fails to portray more than all we need to know about God and the gospel. Amen.
As it's late here now, I will complete my other post, another day. |
| | 2007/11/4 21:54 | | IRONMAN
Member
Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
| | what on earth... | | Brethren
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.
bro wildbranch asked:
Quote:
The saddest thing about this thread is that no one, besides Nile and myself, has stood up to say that our God, YHWH, cannot be tempted by evil-----------tempted to sin through enticement and lust. The thread had the question: "Can God be tempted to worship Satan?" Rather than unequivicably refuting such a blasphemous claim, people have actually insisted that He can.
based on this scripture:
Quote:
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
this scripture continues on to say this:
[i][b][color=0000FF]14 and each one is tempted, by his own desires being led away and enticed, 15 afterward the desire having conceived, doth give birth to sin, and the sin having been perfected, doth bring forth death.[/color][/b][/i]
God can't be tempted in the sense that He would sin because no such desire is to be found in Him which would lead Him astray and lead to sin. however that doesn't mean the same as tempting in the sense of bringing such an idea to Him, that is the idea to sin. Clearly the enemy tempted Jesus in the sense that he presented our Lord with the opportunity to worship him and be rewarded for it. However because Jesus had no such wicked desire in Him because Jesus is God, there was nothing for that idea to latch onto that it could come to fruition. the word tempt itself doesn't mean to act on something only but also to present an idea which can be acted on.
now to bros Nile and Wildbranch i ask this:
this scripture is from Psalm 78:
[b]54 And He bringeth them in unto the border of His sanctuary, This mountain His right hand had got, 55 And casteth out nations from before them, And causeth them to fall in the line of inheritance, And causeth the tribes of Israel to dwell in their tents,[/b][u][b][color=0000FF]56 And they tempt and provoke God Most High, And His testimonies have not kept. [/color][/b][/u]
what does the underlined mean then?
what of this in Exodus 17?
[b][color=0000FF]Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said unto them, Why chide ye with me? wherefore do ye tempt the LORD?[/color][/b]
Deuteronmy 6:16?
[b][color=0000FF]15 (For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth. 16 Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.[/color][/b]
there are some more O.T. examples of God being tempted which i could list and some also in the N.T. like Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5 and another incident in Acts 15.
it seems to me the sense of the word tempt as used in James is different in that it not only speaks of the presentation of the idea to act upon but also following through with the idea presented. in that sense God is tempted in the sense that an idea is presented to Him to act on however God doesn't follow through on such because He has no such desire. Jesus also didn't follow through with such presentations when Satan tempted Him because He being One with His Father also had no such desire. God can't be made to do anything contrary to His desire and that's what James is saying, we because of the nature of sin however have an inherent desire to sin.
Quote:
The Holy Scriptures repeatedly describe the absolute, incomprehensible, unequalled perfection of the Eternal Father and that He is totally immune from temptation to do evil.
He is immune to doing evil but that didn't stop Israel from trying to make Him act rashly or against His will which is what evil is, anything contrary to the will of God. this continues daily.
any spirit, idea, theology, philosophy which seeks to make Christ out to be anything less than God or diminish Him is of the devil. any person who would propose such as you have has been influenced by the enemy in that matter and unless God moves, you will not be loosed from those chains. You and bro Nile both tempt God even now with the questioning of Christ as being God. Brothers do not tempt God so. He will not act rashly or do evil but should He deal with you out of His Justice, you would be as Ananias and Sapphira, dead in an instant. don't tempt Him to do that because as God He retains that option and the Divine Right to excercise it.Let us rather appeal to His Mercy which Endures and out of which we are Saved.AMEN.
Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.
_________________
Farai Bamu
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| | 2007/11/4 21:56 | Profile | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
Wildbranche's: Would someone within the camp of those who claim Yeshua is YHWH please explain how YHWH (the Eternal God of the Universe), who cannot be tempted with evil, was often tempted with evil?
The entire book of Hebrews was written particularly to believing Jews that were trying to sort this all out and in some cases were in danger of falling back into Judaism under persecution.
And I suppose we have already answered this and you have rejected our answer in your rejection of the hypostatic union. Perhaps I should ask you a question; [i]could a mere man have created the worlds and all that are contained therein?[/i]
(Colossians 1:16-17) For by him (Christ) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
What a marvelous thing to believe Christ were merely a man! That a mere man created himself and the world he lived in!
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2007/11/4 22:23 | Profile | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
Now how this works might indeed seem incomprehensible to you, Nile, and myself, but truth is not referenced by the conprehension of man but by every word that comes from God. If we agree that scripture indeed conveys those Words, the issue of just who was incarnate is hardly up for debate just because we might lack the faith to accept these words.
Imagine the wonder of the Word of God walking the earth in flesh and blood. Imagine the awesomeness of hearing an audible voice from heaven speaking, "This is my beloved Son, here ye Him." Imagine that the Pharisees just picked up stones to stone Christ as He stated, [i]"Before Abraham was- I AM."[/i] (John 8:58) These people had enough proof as Christ declared plainly who He was.
(John 19:7) The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
Understand that they did not declare Him a blasphemer because He declared Himself to be a mere man.
(John 5:18) Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
You will notice that NEVER ONCE did He rebuke them or correct them for their accusation of Himself being equal with God. He did not consider equality with God as a thing to be grasped (Phil. 2); but He never denied it. Wildbranch and Nile may misunderstand what Jesus revealed Himself to be; but the Jews certainly did [u]not[/u].
(Luke 5:21) And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
Having desired to take Him and crucify him they allied themselves with their enemies the Romans to take Him. Ask yourself if this is a mere mortal man:
(John 18:5, 6) They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I AM. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I AM, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
As if to remove all doubt, this answer literally took these men off of their feet! I marvel at the hardness of heart. I marvel at the arrogance of men. To still declare Him a blasphemer worthy of death for making it plain that He was the Son of God and equal with God- with the dirt and grass stains still clinging to their backsides. If men could still after all of this deny Christ's deity and then set up an entire religion to shut Him out of the Jews lives- it is a light thing that they should contend with us. I mean, what will it take for some people to get the message? To be blown through a stone wall by His voice? Jesus answered it Himself:
(Luke 16:29-31) Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
The people rejected Moses and put a vail on his glowing face in fear of seeing the residue of God's glory. They molded a golden calf whilst the mountain was on fire. What a marvel! To behold the Fire of God Almighty and then cast a golden god. What again? To reject Jesus Christ of Nazareth and appoint Simon Bar Kochba.
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2007/11/4 22:59 | Profile |
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