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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Was God tempted to worship Satan?

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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
"And thou shalt call his name YESHUA; for he shall save his people from their sins!" AMen!! But that aside, RobertW II, I copy-pasted that from the link that Nile had provided.

"And thou shalt call his name YESHUA; for he shall save his people from their sins!" AMen!!

[i]pretentious[i/]..are you sure??



Well, after having studied with the Messianics, took 5 semesters of 613 Laws and a host of other courses, celebrated a 1st century style Passover, I came to realize, that in fact I was called to be a Gentile and I never really knew Him by using that name- even IF (and all Yeshua really is is Joshua in Hebrew) that was what He was called in His days upon the earth. I just asked the question from my own experience. I guess calling Paul 'Rav Shaul' and and James 'Rav Jacob' and the like- just was not ME. I began to feel like folk that have an affected personality- only it did not work even that well. I speak English and the LORD knows what I am saying. After al, He counfounded the languages. ;-)


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/11/5 18:41Profile









 Re: Piling on

Amen Hulsey


18 θεον2316 N-ASM ουδεις3762 A-NSM εωρακεν3708 V-RAI-3S-ATT πωποτε4455 ADV μονογενης3439 A-NSM θεος2316 N-NSM ο3588 T-NSM ων5607 V-PXP-NSM εις1519 PREP τον3588 T-ASM κολπον2859 N-ASM του3588 T-GSM πατρος3962 N-GSM εκεινος1565 D-NSM εξηγησατο1834 V-ADI-3S

But the best old Greek manuscripts (Aleph B C L) read monogenēs theos which is undoubtedly the true text. Probably some scribe changed it to ho monogenēs huios to obviate the blunt statement of the deity of Christ and to make it like Joh_3:16. But there is an inner harmony in the reading of the old uncials. The Logos is plainly called theos in Joh_1:1. The Incarnation is stated in Joh_1:14, where he is also termed monogenēs. He was that before the Incarnation. So he is “God only begotten,” “the Eternal Generation of the Son” of Origen’s phrase.
A.T. Robertson.

The only begotten son (ὁ μονογενὴς υἱὸς)
Several of the principal manuscripts and a great mass of ancient evidence support the reading μονογενὴς Θεὸς.
Another and minor difference in reading relates to the article, which is omitted from μονογενὴς by most of the authorities which favor Θεὸς.
The latter reading merely combines in one phrase the two attributes of the word already indicated - God (Joh_1:1), only begotten (Joh_1:14); the sense being one who was both God and only begotten. Vincent.

And to the same purpose the Targum of Jonathan, and also Jarchi, on the same place. The Syriac version here renders it, "the only begotten God which is in the bosom of the Father"; clearly showing, that he is the only begotten, as he is God. John Gill


υιος 5207 ain't in there.

 2007/11/5 18:43
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Hi Robert,

Sharon is actually quoting my signature. It's a comment from a minister observing how the Gospel, if not guarded, is changed and "culturized."



No friendly fire intended brother. I just heard lots of similar things in the past and had an idea where that line of reasoning sprang from within Messianic circles. :-)


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/11/5 18:45Profile
hulsey
Moderator



Joined: 2006/7/5
Posts: 653
Missouri

 Re:

Nile,

In an earlier post I used the used the word foolishly in reference to you and I apologize. I shouldn't have done that.

I'm not angry with you or sharon though I am passionate about this.

I have a book in my library about the Trinity in the Bible. The author endeavored to cover the issues on the subject throughout the Bible. It's well over 500 pages long and he still wasn't able to cover very much of the material.

One God existing as multiple persons is so prevalent from Genesis to Revelation it's overwhelming. Even in the Sh'ma in Deut. ch6 Hear O' Israel the Lord our God the Lord is one. The word from one is not the Hebrew word for a singular one, but that of a plural of persons being in unity. "They are one" would be an accurate translation.

Please keep studying this.


_________________
Jeremy Hulsey

 2007/11/5 19:09Profile
wildbranch
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138


 Re: pretention (for Robert)

Robert, I mostly agree with you re your experience with the "Messianics".

Although my husband and I have not been part of such a group, I have seen enough on the internet to see the sort of fake nature of what is going on in some of these elitist type groups(not all). Everything is draped in layers of 'Jewish garb', with excesses not seen in synogogues and Judaism.

You are right, there is a type of pretention going on. Hopefully many will move on to a more genuine expression of their beliefs. The same sort of thing can be seen in the hyper-charismatic Christian circles, although along different lines.

Sharon



*edit. Actually we were part of a type of Messianic community once, but it was a very simple life style, very similar to the Amish or Hutterites Communities. In order to join the community, we were required to 'sell all that we had and give it to the poor', as they took that injunction very literally. Although we lost everything, and ended up only staying a few months, it was a wonderful time.

 2007/11/5 20:34Profile









 Re:

What I'm still inclined to wonder is, how would Paul deal with this? Or John. Or Jude?
Just can't get away from pondering on how and what they wrote.
Psa 11:3 If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?

 2007/11/5 22:17
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Compare and consider these three passages:

(Acts 14:11-15) And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people. [u]Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out, And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you,[/u] and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:

Here we have mere men reacting to being considered and called 'gods'. It is a swift reaction and a right one. they rent their garments as a show of vexation at what they people were considering and believing. Their reaction was to NIP IT in the bud!

(Revelation 19:10) And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Here an angel refuses to be considered worthy of being known as God and accepting worship. [i]See thou do it not[/i] was the angel's reaction. again, the reaction was to NIP IT in the bud!

(John 20:27, 28) Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.


Bishop Pearce says here: “Observe that Thomas calls Jesus [u]his God[/u], and that Jesus does not reprove him for it, though probably it was the first time he was called so.” And, I would ask, could Jesus be jealous of the honor of the true God - could he be a prophet - could he be even an honest man, to permit his disciple to indulge in a mistake so monstrous and destructive, if it had been a mistake? (Adam Clarke) Truly if the Messiah be as exalted above all other names as Christ is- He would not have allowed such an error to go on unthwarted. Jesus' acceptance of being known as God and worship is additional proof that He is God. If it were not so- He had [u]not[/u] been sinless because He stood by and watched more than one worship Him in VIOLATION of the first commandment.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/11/5 22:43Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
What I'm still inclined to wonder is, how would Paul deal with this? Or John. Or Jude?



The challenge in these forums is to understand that there is still hope for folk to come to the knowledge of the Truth if they are willing to listen. I believe we have defended the Truth valiantly and rightly; not just with zeal but with Truth. I believe any potential deception has been handled and feel no real fears that we have somehow leaft an question unanswered. Yet, there are still precious souls to consider- both that could be endangered by falsehood and that have been deceived themselves.

If in the event that we cannot come to an understanding of the Truth truly we cannot fellowship with people that hold such a doctrine. There are some issues worth dividing over- and the Deity of Christ and the Trinity are among them. We can win an argument and lose a soul. We must earnestly contend for the faith. And that we have done. If we cannot agree upon essential Christian doctrien after having plainly expounded our case; there is no other recourse but division. We simply cannot allow the proliferation of falsehood in our midst.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/11/5 22:58Profile
wildbranch
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138


 Re: Jesus the first-born

Rev 3:14. "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: 'The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the [b]beginning of the creation[/b] of God, says this:'

Uh-oh... Yeshua is talking. Did you listen to what He just said? He just said that he is..."THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD."

Those that claim that Yeshua IS the CREATOR - how can he be the Creator and ALSO at the beginning of the Creation of God? There was a time when 'he was not.....when he was begotten....when he became the first-born...?

"I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, 'Thou art My Son, [b]Today I have begotten Thee[/b]. (Psalms 2:7)

Hebrews1: 5-9 "For to what angel did God ever say, "Thou art my Son, today I have [b]begotten[/b] thee"? Or again, "I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son"? 6 And again, when he brings the [b]first-born[/b] into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him." But of the Son he says, "Thy throne, O God(**see note), is for ever and ever, the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, [b]thy God[/b], has anointed thee with the oil of gladness beyond thy comrades".

_________________________________________________

***note:

Strongest Strong's Dictionary #430: elohim - God (plural of majesty: plural in form but singular in meaning, with a focus on great power); gods (true grammatical plural); any person characterised by greatness or power: mighty one, great one, judge.

*some verses where the word god is used to describe Moses, children of God, and even satan:

Exodus 7:1 "Behold I have made you a [b]god[/b] (Hebrew word: elohim) to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet."

Psalm 82:6 "I say , "You are [b]gods[/b] (elohim), sons of the Most High, all of you;"

Yeshua answered them, ‘Is it not written in the Scripture, “I said, you are [b]gods[/b].” If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came, and the Scripture cannot be broken, do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘[b]I am the Son of God?[/b]’

The Greek word, theos, is also used to describe Satan, "the god of this world" (2 Corinthians 4:4)



 2007/11/6 8:18Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 The Lord Jesus Christ

Quote:
The challenge in these forums is to understand that there is still hope for folk to come to the knowledge of the Truth if they are willing to listen. I believe we have defended the Truth valiantly and rightly; not just with zeal but with Truth. I believe any potential deception has been handled and feel no real fears that we have somehow leaft an question unanswered. Yet, there are still precious souls to consider- both that could be endangered by falsehood and that have been deceived themselves.

If in the event that we cannot come to an understanding of the Truth truly we cannot fellowship with people that hold such a doctrine. There are some issues worth dividing over- and the Deity of Christ and the Trinity are among them. We can win an argument and lose a soul. We must earnestly contend for the faith. And that we have done. If we cannot agree upon essential Christian doctrien after having plainly expounded our case; there is no other recourse but division. We simply cannot allow the proliferation of falsehood in our midst.



With this it seems prudent to lock this thread and send out a warning. Niles and wildbranch, you are welcome to partake just as anyone else here but I am asking you to not start any more postings of this nature. It may be difficult to recognize but by what you have both brought forth here in these two subsequent posts of the same nature that everything will have this taint to it. It seems quite the reach that you would even be wiling to listen to any of the messages here or even fellowship with the members of this community when the Lord is seen in such stark contrasts ... That is a very mild and tempered way of putting it, but enough has been spoken already.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/11/6 8:32Profile





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