Poster | Thread | RobertW Member
Joined: 2004/2/12 Posts: 4636 St. Joseph, Missouri
| Re: | | Quote:
BTW, why do you frequent a site where all the speakers and members you would call heretics and they would call you heretics?
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. (II Timothy 2:23)
The question of "Christ being tempted" and "God cannot be tempted" is a most elementary issue one faces immediately as they begin to study God's word. Is it not better than one would sit and learn and listen before enguaging in argument? Is this what we are seeing? YOung men that worship the art of debate and live to destroy their lesser learned opponent?
If one is willing to know the truth then the answer is easily understood. If strive and confusion is the objective then impressionable and young minds are at risk. Not everyone that frequents this site majors in apologetics and their faith can be overthrown or ministering questions can cause their faith to waver.
Notice what Paul here calls, "Unlearned questions." This is what we are dealing with here. Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man. It was in Christ's humanity that He was tempted in all point like as we are - yet without sin.
(Hebrews 2:14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
(Hebrews 2:15) And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
(Hebrews 2:16) For verily [u]he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him[/u] the seed of Abraham.
Christ existed from eternity past as the Son of God; but now has appeared, having taken on the nature of the seed of Abraham. He was not a man before taking on the nature of a man. He was not an angel that took on the nature of an Angel. He is the Son of God, the word of God that was made flesh and dwelt among us.
_________________ Robert Wurtz II
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| 2007/11/2 19:29 | Profile | Lkid Member
Joined: 2007/7/6 Posts: 109
| Re: | | Thank you Robert for your posts. They are edification, as well as what the others wrote on the Unitarian post last week. May we all grow into the Head that is Christ Himself!
With regards to temptation and Christ i've been thinking lately about something. (I've run into some Christadelphians who basically have the same beliefs as Nile so i've been thinking in defense of the scriptures along these lines too).
If Christ were not God, that is if He were ONLY man, He could have done nothing but sin for the word says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Christ was not baptized with the Holy Spirit until around 30 years old. How then did He keep from sinning for those first 30 years? It's because although He took on our nature He still retained His nature. As we have said, He is all God and all man.
just a thought |
| 2007/11/2 20:01 | Profile | BeYeDoers Member
Joined: 2005/11/17 Posts: 370 Bloomington, IN
| Re: | | Quote:
I missed it. There is a dangerous trend here I have seen where it seems to me that a lot of these younger guys think all sorts of essential Christian doctrines are up for grabs. Again, we can have these discussions and personally I am quite ready to move forward in defense of the faith if necessary; but my heart is grieved that this attitude seems to prevail among some. Forgive me if I am coming off strong here, I am just very alarmed at this.
I agree that it is alarming. And grieving. One week the most popular thread was a few trying to convince us all of Sabellianism, and the very next week the most popular thread was a few trying to convince us all of Arianism. Not only that, but many in the church today just want to go along to get along...and this deals with who Christ is! You coming off as too strong Robert? By no means! We must know the Christ we worship! Defend our faith we must, and we will! _________________ Denver McDaniel
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| 2007/11/2 20:35 | Profile | Nile Member
Joined: 2007/3/28 Posts: 403 Raleigh, NC
| Re: Was God tempted to worship Satan? | | Tears_of_joy, thank you for your response. I think that's a much more reasonable trinitarian defense of this passage than the hypostatic union. Trinitarians should use that defense instead of tying themselves up saying Jesus was tempted in the same sense that God cannot be tempted.
Thanks again, Nile
P.S. If you use this same sort of reasoning on the verses quoted to show that Jesus is divine, you will find them lacking as well. _________________ Matthew Miskiewicz
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| 2007/11/2 20:54 | Profile | Tears_of_joy Member
Joined: 2003/10/30 Posts: 1554
| Re: | | Quote:
If you use this same sort of reasoning on the verses quoted to show that Jesus is divine, you will find them lacking as well.
I didn't get, what you want to say here.
Nile, have you ever worshiped Jesus as God in your life? (Before the time you decided to deny him as God) |
| 2007/11/2 21:02 | Profile | BeYeDoers Member
Joined: 2005/11/17 Posts: 370 Bloomington, IN
| Re: | | Quote:
I think that's a much more reasonable trinitarian defense of this passage than the hypostatic union.
Of course you do Nile...you do not believe or understand the hypostatic union _________________ Denver McDaniel
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| 2007/11/2 21:13 | Profile | Miccah Member
Joined: 2007/9/13 Posts: 1752 Wisconsin
| Re: | | Bah, look at this thread for what it is, an attack by the enemy.
Does it suprise anyone here that these forums and believers on here would be attacked by the opposition? We have to expect it, prepare for it and defend it.
[u][b]2 Timothy 4:1-5 (NKJV)[/b][/u]
I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
Christiaan _________________ Christiaan
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| 2007/11/2 23:03 | Profile |
| Re: | | Yes, we did see this as an attack and as our other member friend mentioned and some of us noticed - this {unitarianism} and the Oneness doctrine baptism thread, mostly came as the others were away at the Canton Conference. :-(
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| 2007/11/2 23:10 | | RobertW Member
Joined: 2004/2/12 Posts: 4636 St. Joseph, Missouri
| Re: | | Quote:
I think that's a much more reasonable trinitarian defense of this passage than the hypostatic union.
Your use of the term [i]hypostatic union[/i] tells me that you in advance understood at least the jest of how Christ was indeed tempted- in advance of the first post. Was this indeed an attack on the divinity of Christ? In my last conversation with Nile the finished work of the cross was in question as I recall in the Moral Gov't thread started by Philologos.
(1 Timothy 1:20) Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
I hope this is a lesson to our listeners of a prime example of how error begets error and then begets major heresy. This is the natural progression of an unbiblical view of Original Sin, the Atonement, and a law based salvation. Someone mentioned in that thread (I believe it was) and it was almost prophetic that these ideas will land a person in full-on liberal theology and that is exactly what has happened. The next thing to go (obviously it has gone already in practical terms) is the authority of scripture. If a person will mix a moral gov't view of man's ability to fulfill the law (which is a close view of the law that the unbelieving Jews hold to), with the notion that it is impossible that Christ died on the Cross for [u]my[/u] sins (penal substitution), with the notion that Christ was NOT in fact God, but man one will end up with the same view of Christ, His life and ministry, and the Cross as the unbelieving Jews.
(John 5:18) [u]Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him[/u], because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, [u]making himself equal with God.[/u]
The next progression in this whole debacle is that Christ did not die as God for MY sins, but as as a blasphemer that made Himself equal with God. (John 1:1, 2) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.
This is before the creation. Therefore we see the eternality of Christ. Christ is the uncreated one.
(John 1:3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
This is Christ the Creator. This is an allusion to Genesis 1:1; Isaiah 45:11-13;
(Genesis 1:1) In the beginning [u]God[/u] created the heaven and the earth.
(Isaiah 45:11-13) Thus saith the [u]LORD[/u], the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.
The word for God in Genesis is the Hebrew Elohiym and it is a plural term. Even within the Jews [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1993]SHEMA recital is the plural unity of God found. [/url] Whenever you see the term capitol L O R D in the AV it is the translation of YHWH the Tetragrammaton. This is the most holy name of God as given under the Old Covenant. So much so that the Jews were afraid to mispronounce it and would substitute a different word or say [i]Hashem[/i], which means THE NAME.
(John 1:10, 11) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
This is amazing! The creator of the world was [i]in[/i] the world and the world did not know it. I might say also- still will not acknowledge it.
(John 1:14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
This is John's Holy Spirit breathed revelation of the incarnation and hypostatic union. The word was made flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld HIS (personal pronoun obviously denoting personhood) glory.
Let me just say that 'salvation' that does not include a genuine transformation of man through biblical regeneration by the Holy Spirit will leave a person natural and unable to grasp Spiritual concepts. They are foolishness to them because they are spiritually discerned. This is what Moral Gov't evangelism will produce in those that do not (in spite of the theology) become truly born again; people who cannot even grasp the most basic Christian concepts.
_________________ Robert Wurtz II
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| 2007/11/3 8:01 | Profile | crsschk Member
Joined: 2003/6/11 Posts: 9192 Santa Clara, CA
| Re: Spirit of revelation and truth | | Nile,
Hope you do recognize the sheer patience expressed toward you by the members here, all who have much more than correcting your doctrine in mind, that they care for your soul.
Indeed this is but a repeating of the same thing under a different guise, have you asked yourself why it is that this has so taken up your thoughts?
[i]Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[/i] Joh 5:18
Do you fully recognize where you are standing here?
(Edit: This verse came to mind as collary to John 5:18 ... [i]Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, Php 2:5,6 [/i] ... 'Equal', 'Equality' ... not a thing to be grasped ... "[i]but made himself nothing[/i]")
The admonishen and suggestion mentioned earlier is repeated; Challenge yourself to immerse your mind elsewhere for a season and prayer ... Let me be very blunt about this, prayer is what you desperately need to be attending to, to empty yourself before the throne and allow the Holy Spirit to teach you what you cannot accept from your own Brethren, who also have the Spirit.
If you do not wish help or to engage in learning, sharing, discussion, but only to perpetuate an agenda you will find yourself in similarity to this principle;
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
The flesh in this case pertains not to the lusts of that context but to your [i]mind[/i] that would have you strip mining the very Lord of glory Himself. Repent of this. _________________ Mike Balog
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| 2007/11/3 8:28 | Profile |
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