| Poster | Thread | roaringlamb
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California
| | Re: | | Brother logic, I wish to break this down into a simple wording-
I am guilty because of what Adam did
I am redeemed because of what Christ did
_________________
patrick heaviside
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|  2007/11/1 14:21 | Profile | Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791
| | Re: | | Quote:
roaringlamb wrote: Quote:
This doctrine intends that Christ owed no obedience to the law, and therefore his obedience to the law was superfluous.
Brother you are suggesting that Christ had to fulfill the Law so He would be accepted by God. This is not true at all. He fulfilled the law perfectly on our behalf, and He had to or else, we must do it now.
Are you saying that Christ could have broken evry law and sayed sinnless?
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roaringlamb wrote:
What would be the purpose of Christ needing to keep the Law for Himself, He was and is fully God and fully man.
So He wouldn't sin agains the law.
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roaringlamb wrote:
If He must keep the Law for Himself as a means to be accepted by God, then Christ must only be man, for only man was given the Law as a means to prove his inability to come to Heaven and to point to Christ as the way to the Father.
Jesus was a Man made under the law(Gal 4:4b).
Furthermore, The law was not to prove man's inability to come to Heaven.
The law exist for the reason of making our inclination that is opposed to the law to be evident and to be seen for what it truly is. It made death to be evident in us by that which is good; In other words, the Law exists so that our inclinations would be evidenctly more wicked in contrast to the specific requirements of the law(Rom 7:13).
The Law is also used to show us that we cannot consistently uphold it without the help of the Holy Spirit. The Law not only shows us that we sin, it also shows us that we need a whole difernt motivation and intent of our hearts.
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roaringlamb wrote:
Be careful brother, you are getting into dangerous waters here.
Said by a man who worships a tyrant.
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roaringlamb wrote:
Also, did you write this, or is this from Finney? it has a definite Finney-esque quality to it.Quote:
Furthermore, if Jesus obeyed the law as our substitute, our own return to personal obedience would not be insisted upon as an essential part of our salvation?
Finney ain't all bad.
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roaringlamb wrote:
I feel for you brother if you do not believe that Christ dies for you, and in your place fulfilled all that the Law demanded, because you must do it on your own to be accepted by God.
Christ dies in my place of wrath, not obediance. I am able to fulfill all that the Law demanded because I walk after the spirit(Rom 8:4)
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roaringlamb wrote:
Would you tell a person that they may come to Christ and be forgiven, but then they must uphold their end of the bargain for them to get to Heaven?
I would tell them to keep a relationship with Christ.
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roaringlamb wrote:Quote:
If Justification is not forced upon all men, then is condemnation not forced upon all men.
[b]Condemnation is not forced[/b] upon men at all, by the natural birth [b]man is born condemned[/b], and in the new birth a man is born justified.
Your double talking now.
I think I meant to say is, "If Justification is not forced then condemnation must not be forced( forced as by being born condemned).
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roaringlamb wrote:
Strangely, I think we kind of agree on this. Condemnation is the state of all in Adam, and justification is the state of all in Christ.
I don't think so, I say man is not born condemned to hell, he condemns himself.
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roaringlamb wrote:Quote:
It is the individuals choices that determine whether they are condemned or justified.
Really, so what choice does an infant make to suffer the effects of sin? Did they choose to be born?
What choice do plant and animals make to suffer the effects of sin?
Furthermore, it is not the "effects of sin" that creation suffers, but the circumstances of sin.
The effect of sin is spiritual death and that must be by one own choice to sin.
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roaringlamb wrote:
How does that differ? Did we not all come from Adam? Is he not the head, or beginning of the human race?
But is does not mean that his sin condemns the rest of all mankind to hell.
Our own sin does that.
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roaringlamb wrote:Quote:
Man falls on his own, not universal guilt. If there is universal guilt then there must be universal guilt salvation.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
This sounds pretty universal to me. Those outside of Christ shall suffer the wrath of God, just as those outside of the Ark suffered the flood. It is because they are sinners, and they act out what they are by nature.
Sounds like we all made ourselves guilty. not Adam.
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roaringlamb wrote:
There does not need to be universal salvation simply because God does need to save any at all.
Yes, but according to you, He creats a child in the womb only to destroy in in hell.
[b]Romans 9:13[/b] [color=990000]As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.[/color]
[b]Rom 9:11[/b] [color=990000]For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil[/color]
Your interp would have this:
God takes pleasure in creating hated children in the womb, before having done any good or evil He conemns them to hell without giiving the a chance to repent by putting the guilt of sin on them before they even sin.
Therefore they are doomed before the creation of the world.
You worship this god.
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roaringlamb wrote:Quote:
How do you thinks He saves them?
By imputing the righteousness of Christ to them, and clothing them in His righteousness. By crediting them with both the active and passive obedience of Christ, this being the keeping of every point of the law, and the substitutionary death upon the Cross.
He actualy saves us by forgiving us and having a relationship with us.
The righteousness comes from our faith in/on HIM.
Where do you get the "crediting them with both the active and passive obedience of Christ"?
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roaringlamb wrote:
Apart from these God would have no ground to deal with us, as someone must fulfill the law, and someone must also pay the penalty we owe before God can deal with us.
HE forgives our past disobediance and because of our love for HIM, we fullfill the righteousness of the law by walking not after the flesh, but after the Spirit(Rom 8:4).
This is done by becoming dead to the requirement of the law through the body of Christ; that we should be bound to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God(Rom 7:4).
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roaringlamb wrote:
Our relationship is through Christ alone.
The relationship is an emotional and Father/son Brother/brother connection between us: the relationship between us [b]must be two sided[/b], not by one alone. Please get theology correct.
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roaringlamb wrote:Quote:
Adam can not throw anyones ability out, man must willfuly rebell out of his ability in order for it to be sin.
Brother when could you keep the Law perfectly?
I could have once I reached the age of accountability by comming to HIM to help me to walk after the spirit.
I chose by my own volition to stay away from Him that I may keep sinning.
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roaringlamb wrote:Quote:
Quit joking, please.
I wasn't joking brother, simply bringing Scriptural truth to bear upon the illustration.
You said, "No, because the new born has ability to do it."
this is the the question, "Would you call a command of mowing the law for a new born(not a two year old) justifide?"
"No" what?
the new born [b]has[/b] ability to mow the lawn?
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| | 2007/11/1 15:07 | Profile | wildbranch
Member
Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138
| | Re: sinful babies | | roaringlamb stated:
quote: "No, because you have not addressed why infants suffer the symptoms of sin, though you say they are pure.
The symptoms show the illness, so thus no matter how cute and cuddly babies are, they are still sinful"
Roaringlamb, Let us not forget how Yeshua viewed the little children:
....."At that time the disciples came to Yeshua and said, Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, Truly I say to you, unless you are [i]converted[/i] and become [i]like children[/i], you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea"...
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| | 2007/11/1 15:34 | Profile | roaringlamb
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California
| | Re: | | Quote:
Are you saying that Christ could have broken evry law and sayed sinnless?
It was never even a possibility.
Christ was the Lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world, therefore He was ordained to be sinless, and it was God's will that He redeem men by His sacrifice for them.
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The law was not to prove man's inability to come to Heaven.
The law requires a man to keep every point to be righteous, and only the righteous will inherit eternal life. So a man must have a perfect righteousness in order to inherit eternal life.
This righteousness must be form something even greater than the law, as the law cannot justify men, only condemn them and show them their guilt.
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Said by a man who worships a tyrant.
Brother I will leave this alone
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Finney ain't all bad.
Any man, no matter who he is, or how popular he is cannot be considered a Christian if he denies that Christ died for sinners, and that Christ alone saves men.
This is why the Roman Catholic Church has ceased to be a true Church, because they deny that justification is by faith through Christ's merit given to us by grace.
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Christ dies in my place of wrath, not obediance. I am able to fulfill all that the Law demanded because I walk after the spirit(Rom 8:4)
Brother don't forget what comes before this
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Also, do you always keep the Law now, or are you just before God because of Christ?
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I would tell them to keep a relationship with Christ.
What of those who are weak, and struggle to do this, what hope do you offer them?
Do you throw them back to the law, or do you show them Christ for them, and His righteousness imputed to them, and His intercession for them?
Also, how does one start this relationship? Is repentance the "work" they must do to make God look upon them? Of course faith is what justifies a man, and that faith and repentance are products of the new birth.
Much like a new born does not work to bring itself into the world, yet the breathing and crying are signs of life.
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I don't think so, I say man is not born condemned to hell, he condemns himself.
Brother the Scriptures are clear that all those who do not believe in Christ are already condemned, and apart from Spiritual revelation, they will not believe.
Man's actions proceed from the heart which is what Christ Himself said, that adulteries, fornication is, etc proceed from the heart. If a man's heart is unchanged, he will never have a desire to be godly, or to follow God's word.
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The effect of sin is spiritual death and that must be by one own choice to sin.
Brother you cannot compare animals, and trees to humans who have souls, and you still have not answered the question, if infants die(which is an effect of sin) what choice did they make?
Also, I am glad to see that you know say the fall produced a spiritual death as well. This is why we need to be made spiritually alive.
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But is does not mean that his sin condemns the rest of all mankind to hell.
Yes our sin will condemn us, but we sin because we are sinners. From our natural heart flows sin, and desire for sin because of the fall of Adam.
Adam's sin brought hell as the place of all men outside of Christ, and our acts of sin confirm that this is so. If God did not intervene, that is where every one of us would go.
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Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil
Your interp would have this:
God takes pleasure in creating hated children in the womb, before having done any good or evil He conemns them to hell without giiving the a chance to repent by putting the guilt of sin on them before they even sin.
God does not condemn brother, we are condemned from the beginning, and if God had not stepped in, we all would be lost.
But notice this does not say anything about infants perishing. It does say that God chose before they were born, but God also knew they wold grow into men. Psalm 139 speaks of God knowing everything about us brother, every word we speak, the members of our body, our thoughts, He knows all things.
He chooses who will be saved, and who will not, but we do not know what that number is. It is probably more than we think, and only in eternity will we know.
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The righteousness comes from our faith in/on HIM.
What if my faith is weak, then is my justification weak too? Or is it the object of my faith(Christ) which makes of any value at all? Thus in every trial, and every storm of life, I may approach God because He is faithful, not because of anything in me or from me, it is all grace, and I contribute nothing but my sin and weakness.
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HE forgives our past disobediance and because of our love for HIM
What about my present disobedience? What if I don't love my neighbour as myself, what if I said a harsh word to my wife, what then?
What of the times where I do not love Him, or my love is cold towards Him? Does He cast me off, even though He has married Himself to me as He did with Israel?
Brother, where in all of this is Christ's intercession for us(not just prayers), or His mediatorial work. Is He not a priest who appears before the throne of grace offering His prayers for us?
The focus is not me and what I have or have not done, it is Christ and what He has done, and is doing. Anyone who has been given faith to believe this work for them is justified, and will not face condemnation, and they will persevere to the end as He sustains them.
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The relationship is an emotional and Father/son Brother/brother connection between us: the relationship between us must be two sided, not by one alone. Please get theology correct.
Our relationship with God is based upon Christ's righteousness, and His intercession for us. If it were not for Him, we would have no relationship with God, as we would have no means of being able to have a relationship with God.
Christ is last Adam who is also a life giving spirit, that is how we have fellowship with the Father, and by the Spirit.
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I could have once I reached the age of accountability by comming to HIM to help me to walk after the spirit.
When was this age brother? Had you never told a lie to your parents, or never not loved your friends enough to share your toys with them?
Did you always love God with all your heart, do you now?
Don't you see how much this is focussed upon you, and what you have done? In effect, you are saying that God must accept you because you are not that bad, and you only need Him as a helper when you cannot keep His requirements.
But isn't this what the Jews though as well? They were proud of their supposed righteousness, because they thought they had or could keep the law.
This why Christ magnified the Law by pointing out that the heart was the issue, not the outward keeping of precepts, but the inward corruption that needed to be done away with.
_________________
patrick heaviside
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| | 2007/11/1 16:30 | Profile | Logic
Member
Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791
| | Re: | | Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
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Are you saying that Christ could have broken every law and stayed sinless?
It was never even a possibility.
[b]Hebrews 4:15[/b] [color=990000]For we have not a High Priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses with us in our weaknesses, but one who was tempted in every respect just as we are tempted, and yet did not sin.[/color]
If Jesus could not have sinned, He could not sympathize with our weaknesses or be tempted.
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The law was not to prove man's inability to come to Heaven.Quote:
The law requires a man to keep every point to be righteous, and only the righteous will inherit eternal life. So a man must have a perfect righteousness in order to inherit eternal life.
We fulfill the law by walking after the spirit. We keep the spirit of the law.
And to have eternal life, one needs to be knowing the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You sent(Joh 17:3)
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This righteousness must be form something even greater than the law, as the law cannot justify men, only condemn them and show them their guilt.
This righteousness comes from faith. Why are you complicating all this?
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Any man, no matter who he is, or how popular he is cannot be considered a Christian if he denies that Christ died for sinners, and that Christ alone saves men.
Kettle calling the pot black. You say that Christ did not die for sinners, only some. Therefore, can you be considered a Christian?
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Christ dies in my place of wrath, not obedience. I am able to fulfill all that the Law demanded because I walk after the spirit(Rom 8:4)
Brother don't forget what comes before this
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Also, do you always keep the Law now, or are you just before God because of Christ?
I am always fulfilling the Law because I walk after the spirit, there is therefore now no condemnation to those who do so.
I am also justified before God because of Christ.
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I would tell them to keep a relationship with Christ.
What of those who are weak, and struggle to do this, what hope do you offer them?
Like I said, it is a two way relationship, Jesus will comfort them.
In our weakness, He is strong.
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Do you throw them back to the law, or do you show them Christ for them, and His righteousness imputed to them, and His intercession for them?
I said "relationship with Christ" not with the law.
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I don't think so, I say man is not born condemned to hell, he condemns himself.
Brother the Scriptures are clear that all those who do not believe in Christ are already condemned, and apart from Spiritual revelation, they will not believe.
Then it ain't their fault for being condemned because Jesus didn't give them a "spiritual revelation.
But, They choose not to believe, that is why they are condemned.
And apart from revelation of Christ, they will not believe, or they still might not believe even with a revelation of Christ.
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Man's actions proceed from the heart which is what Christ Himself said, that adulteries, fornication is, etc proceed from the heart. If a man's heart is unchanged, [b]he will never have a desire to be godly, or to follow God's word.[/b]
Unless convicted of sin by the law.
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...you still have not answered the question, if infants die(which is an effect of sin) what choice did they make?
physical death is not an effect of sin, it is only the circumstance of Adam's sin.
Only spiritual death is the effect of sin.
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Yes our sin will condemn us, but we sin because we are sinners.
You got it backwards, we are sinners because we sin.
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From our natural heart flows sin, and desire for sin because of the fall of Adam.
Not because of Adam, we desire for sin because of our flesh.
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Adam's sin brought hell as the place of all men outside of Christ, and our acts of sin confirm that this is so.
I think Lucifer's fall brought hell as the place of all men outside of Christ, since it was created for him & his angles.
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Your interp would have this:
God takes pleasure in creating hated children in the womb, before having done any good or evil He condemns them to hell without giving the a chance to repent by putting the guilt of sin on them before they even sin.
God does not condemn, brother, we are condemned from the beginning, and if God had not stepped in, we all would be lost.
We are condemned to hell for our own first sin.
Why would God condemn one to hell because another's sin?
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But notice this does not say anything about infants perishing. It does say that God chose before they were born, but God also knew they would grow into men.
Then what do you interp of this is? "being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil...Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated"
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He chooses who will be saved, and who will not, but we do not know what that number is. It is probably more than we think, and only in eternity will we know.
This god is not [b]all loving[/b] and he is [b]finite in grace[/b].
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The righteousness comes from our faith in/on HIM.
What if my faith is weak, then is my justification weak too?
[b]Rom 14:1[/b] [color=990000]Receive him that is weak in the faith, but not for passing judgment.[/color]
[b]Isa 35:3-4[/b] [color=990000]Strengthen you the weak hands, and make firm the feeble knees.
[b]:4[/b] Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompense; he will come and save[/color]
[b]Isa 42:3 & Mat 12:20[/b] [color=990000]A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth justice unto truth.[/color]
Notice that in context to weak faith is also the context of weak conscience.
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HE forgives our past disobedience and because of our love for HIM
What about my present disobedience? What if I don't love my neighbour as myself, what if I said a harsh word to my wife, what then?...blah, blah, blah...
Um, HE forgives you.
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The focus is not me and what I have or have not done, it is Christ and what He has done, and is doing.
I never say that the focus is us who have faith, however, you can not deny that relationship is a two way concept.
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Anyone who has been given faith
There you go again with "given faith", which is not found anywhere in the Bible.
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The relationship is an emotional and Father/son Brother/brother connection between us: the relationship between us must be two sided, not by one alone. Please get theology correct.
Our relationship with God is based upon Christ's righteousness, and His intercession for us.
Why do you deny that you need to do anything?
faith without works is dead, we have a part to play in our salvation.
[b]Heb 4:11[/b] [color=990000]Let [b][u]us[/u] labor[/b] therefore to enter into that rest...[/color]
That Rest is Christ.
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I could have once I reached the age of accountability by coming to HIM to help me to walk after the spirit.
When was this age brother?
Only God knows, it is different for everyone.
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Did you always love God with all your heart, do you now?
did you forget about the blood? forgiveness? And the most important part, HIS part of our relationship?
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Don't you see how much this is focused upon you, and what you have done?
If it is none of me, then I can curse His holy name, crucify to myself the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame, trodd under foot the Son of God, count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing and insult the Spirit of grace, go off and play the harlot get stoned, murder, go into idolatry and such like.
Will HE will let me into heaven?
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In effect, you are saying that God must accept you because you are not that bad.
I am saying that HE wants to accept me because I acquaint myself with Him and humble myself which makes peace between Him and me; and he lifts me up.(Job 22:21 & James 4:10)
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and you only need Him as a helper when you cannot keep His requirements.
Not that I "only need Him" which is true, but I want Him! He is the only reason that I can keep His requirements.
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But isn't this what the Jews though as well?
No! The Jews who followed after a Law of righteousness did not arrive at a Law of righteousness?
Why? [b]Because it is not out of faith[/b], but as out of law works, they stumble on the stumbling stone(Rom 9:31-32)
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were proud of their supposed righteousness, because they thought they had or could keep the law.
I know that I can not keep the law apart from Christ.
You are confused.
You think mans part of the relationship with Christ is of the law? Why?
Our part if of faith from our own volition. |
| | 2007/11/1 22:01 | Profile | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
Yeshua also said: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of the least of these commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
You will likely know that the Jews believed in first the (7) Noachide Laws, then the Decalogue (10 Commandments) and then codified the Law into 613 Laws (365 don't and 248 do's). MANY of these laws are impossible to fullfil today because they have already been fulfilled by Christ; especially the ceremonial laws and laws that deal with the Levitical priesthood, etc.
A person that has truly been born again of the Holy Spirit and that WALKS in the Spirit they will do by [i]nature[/i] the things that are contained in the Law (Romans 2:14). This is the fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:33,
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, [i]I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts;[/i] and will be their God, and they shall be my people..
This is built upon also by Ezekiel in chapter 36:
For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. [u]Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.[/u] And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen. Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
This is an Old Covenant discription of the Holy Spirit regenerating a person and changing their sinful nature to have the nature of God. If this process was needed it is because a problem existed. Those who deny Orignal pollution must reckon with this. God said that He would do this because the people were in [u]need[/u] of it. [i]A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.[/i] This is God declaring that He was going to radically transform a person. He would give them the Holy Sprit that they [u]will[/u], by nature, fulfill the Law (Romans 2:14). These are people who have more than a theology- they have had a real experience in God. They are not just talking about it- they [i]live[/i] in it. It is their experience.
(Romans 3:31) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Paul then goes on to explain in great detail how salvation by grace through faith plays out in God's design. It is NOT, nor has it ever been a license to sin. One must listen to Paul and not jump to their own conclusions. Justification when rightly preached may well lead a person to Romans 6:1 and ask if we should sin that grace may abound as Ron B. has said in the past. We must not alter God's plan and Gospel to deal with this concern. We need to KEEP READING until we grasp what the full Gospel and salvation is.
(Romans 8:3-6) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Notice that the Law [i]could not bring about God's purpose[/i]. It did not have the power to deal with all of the issues that man faced. Understand that God's objective was NOT to bring man into conformity to a code of laws; but restore man to the image of God that He created man in in the beginning. The Law could not accomplish the task. The Law could show man his need and even 'contain' them in their sinful tendency; but it could NOT restore man to the image and likeness of God. Man man keep the Law out of fear of the penalty of breaking the Law or even some love for God; but man would never under the Law do by nature those things contained in the Law.
The PROOF that the Jews (or Gentiles) did not have such a nature was the need for a Law in the first place. Would a people that from the heart loved God and their neighbor as themselves (the two great commandments) need 613 laws to TEACH them how to love God and their neighbor? Does a man naturally love God and cherish Him as does a mother her child? Perhaps some direction is needed for a mom- but the [i]point[/i] is; there is a 'stergos' or natural family love that exists in mothers. Why then did so much law and threatenings needs be that men would love God and themselves? Simle; because they had fallen from that NATURAL love that was found in the original image and glory of God that Adam was created in. GOD, through Christ, the Cross, and baptism into Christ by the Holy Spirit restores that nature. And with that new heart and His Spirit within- we will by nature do those things that please Him.
_________________
Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2007/11/3 8:55 | Profile |
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