Poster | Thread | Logic Member

Joined: 2005/7/17 Posts: 1791
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roaringlamb wrote:Quote:
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I'd like to see where Scripture teaches [b]regeneration by revelation[/b]...
Act 9:4-6
Hmmm, I don't see it(pun intended)
Jesus revieled Himself to Saul, Saul repented. How can you not see that?
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Salvation may be possible, but it must be applied in order for it to be actual, and effectual. This work of application is done by the Holy Spirit through the preaching of Christ crucified and raised from the dead.
This work of application is done by putting your faith in Christ and what He did on the cross, what you said is not the application, but the persuading of the need for salvation.
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In the work of salvation there is a wonderful united work of the trinity- -The Father has chosen those who will be saved
[b]John 6:44-45[/b] [color=990000]No man can come to me, except the Father who has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. [b]:45[/b] It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that has heard, and has learned of the Father, comes unto me.[/color] God draws by who hears from the Father and is learning the truth, that is who is is coming to Him. If one will not hear he will not be drawn. However, God is calling all men. [b]Act 17:30[/b] [color=990000]And the times of this ignorance God overlooked; but now commands [b]all men everywhere[/b] to repent:[/color] [b]1Tim 2:3[/b] [color=990000]For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; [b]:4[/b] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.[/color] If this isn't all men literaly, then you would have it say, "Who will not have all men to be saved. That is rediculous.
[b]1Tim 4:10[/b] [color=990000]For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.[/color] Notice the distinction between all men and those that believe? Therefore, God is calling all men.
[b]Titus 2:11[/b] [color=990000]For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,[/color]
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-The Son purchases that salvation for those whom the Father chose
And those who are the ones that chose to respond.
[quote-The Holy Spirit applies this salvation to those whom the Father has chosen, and those whom the Son has redeemed. Salvation is not applyed, it is given by relationship with Christ. |
| 2007/10/30 19:42 | Profile |
| Re: | | The following are a few more good quotes from Pelagius:
"It is inquired whether a man ought to be sinless. Without doubt he ought. If he ought he can; if he cannot he ought not. And if a man ought not to be sinless then he ought to be sinful, and that will not be sin which it is admitted he ought to do."
"Above all, if anyone maintains the inevitable sinfulness of man, we must ask him what is a specific sin, something which can be avoided or something which cannot. If the latter, it is not sin; if the former, man can live without sin, seeing that is can be avoided."
"We contradict the Lord to his face when we say: 'It is hard, it is difficult; we cannot, we are men; we are encompassed with fragile flesh. O blind madness! O unholy audacity! We charge the God of all knowledge with a two-fold ignorance, that He does not seem to know what He has made nor what He has commanded, as though, forgetting the human weakness of which He is Himself the author, He imposed laws upon man which he cannot endure."
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Roaringlamb, "I'd like to see where Scripture teaches regeneration by revelation..."
Logic: "Act 9:4-6"
Roaringlamb, "Hmmm, I don't see it(pun intended"
Logic: Jesus revealed Himself to Saul, Saul repented."
Excellent example Logic! God reveals the truth to us and we must submit and surrender to it. Those who choose darkness over the light are resisting and rejecting the truth, they "resist the Holy Spirit" and thereby remain unregenerate.
RoaringLamb, what is your take on all these scriptures which teach regeneration by revelation?
2Pet 2:20 1Pet 1:22 2Pet 1:2-3 John 6:63 John 6:45 John 8:32 Titus 2:11-12 1Tim 2:4 1Cor 4:15 Ps 17:7 James 1:18 1Pet 1:23 James 1:21-22 Rom 2:8 2Thes 1:8 John 15:3 1Pet 4:17 John 17:17 Rom 6:17 Acts 9:4-6
As I've been reading the bible, I've been consciously mindful to write down all the verses to talk about the doctrine of regeneration through the Spirits revelation.
Both Finney and Pelagius taught regeneration through the Spirits revelation. Because they both denied that sin was physical, or some substance that was a part of our constitution, they obviously also denied a physical regeneration, or a regeneration which was a changing of man's constitution.
Of course, the bible no where teaches a physical regeneration or that it is a change of man's constitution. Regeneration is spiritual, it is a changing of a man's moral character and not his natural constitution. It is a changing of his voluntary choice.
And so, since sin is the choice to transgress the law, and regeneration is a cleansing from sin, then regeneration is a changing of choice. The choice to live self-centered is rejected, the choice to live a life of self-denial, of God-centered is chosen. Selfishness is rejected and benevolence is accepted. The heart goes from being selfish to being love, hence it is a new heart, it's been transformed and regenerated by the truth through the Spirit.
Who induces this moral change? The Spirit!
And what instrument does He use? The Truth!
But regeneration is no doubt a voluntary choice. a voluntary change:
- men can choose to either "resist the Holy Spirit" or to yield to Him
- men can choose either the light (truth) or choose the darkness (willful ignorance, the rejection of light)
If men are unregenerate, after the Spirit has revealed truth to them, it is only because they have resist and rejected the Spirit and the truth.
You know, those who believe that regeneration is involuntary and physical do not and cannot believe that the gospel has any tendency at all to regenerate the soul? Preaching, in their view, is utterly useless. Persuading, reasoning, and disputing like Paul did really has no influence to regenerate the heart! In their view.
Also in their view, disobedience is nothing more then obeying a "sin principle". That there is some "sin" back of your will which forces your "actual sins".
To them, regeneration is the removal of this "sin principle" and replaces it with a "holy principle". So there is some "obedience" back of your will which forces your "actual obedience".
But if a man simply goes from obeying one feeling [sin principle], to obeying a different feeling [holy principle], then his moral character hasn't changed at all! He's still subjecting His will to His feelings [principles] rather then subjecting His will to His Intelligence - to the knowledge, light, and revelation of the Spirit. |
| 2007/10/31 6:08 | | intrcssr83 Member

Joined: 2005/10/28 Posts: 246 Logan City, Queensland, Australia
| Re: | | Quote:
by Lazarus1719 on 2007/10/31 21:08:54
You know, those who believe that regeneration is involuntary and physical do not and cannot believe that the gospel has any tendency at all to regenerate the soul? Preaching, in their view, is utterly useless.
Persuading, reasoning, and disputing like Paul did really has no influence to regenerate the heart! In their view.
Care to give examples of ministers - past and present - who have explicitly said such things? _________________ Benjamin Valentine
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| 2007/10/31 6:48 | Profile | Logic Member

Joined: 2005/7/17 Posts: 1791
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"This doctrine is a stumbling-block both to the church and to the world, infinitely dishonorable to God, an abomination alike to God and the human intellect, and should be banished from every pulpit, and form every formula of doctrine, and from the world. It is a relic of heathen philosophy, and was foisted in among the doctrines of Christianity by Augustine, as everyone may know who will take the trouble to examine for himself."
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It must be clearly understood that sin is an abuse of freewill. Sin is not the lose of freewill or the corruption of your nature. It is willful rebellion against God. Sinners are criminals and not cripples!
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Obedience results from a decision of the mind, not the substance of the body." Pelagius
"those who are unwilling to correct their own way of life appear to want to correct nature itself instead." Pelagius
"And lest, on the other hand, it should be thought to be nature's fault that some have been unrighteous, I shall use the evidence of the scripture, which everywhere lay upon sinners the heavy weight of the charge of having used their own will and do not excuse them for having acted only under constraint of nature." Pelagius
"Yet we do not defend the good of nature to such an extent that we claim that it cannot do evil, since we undoubtedly declare also that it is capable of good and evil; we merely try to protect it from an unjust charge, so that we may not seem to be forced to do evil through a fault of our nature, when, in fact, we do neither good nor evil without the exercise of our will and always have the freedom to do one of the two, being always able to do either." Pelagius
"Nothing impossible has been commanded by the God of justice and majesty...Why do we indulge in pointless evasions, advancing the grailty of our own nature as an objectionto the one who commands us? No one knows better the true measure of our strength than he who has given it to us nor does anyone understand better how much we are able to do than he who has given us this very capacity of ours to be able; nor has he who is just wished to command anything impossible or he who is good intended to condemn a man for doing what he could not avoid doing." Pelagius
"Grace indeed freely discharges sins, but with the consent and choice of the believer." Pelagius
"Our most excellent creator wished us to be able to do either but actually to do only one, that is, good, which he also commanded, giving us the capacity to do evil only so that we might do hi will by exercising our own. That being so, this very capacity to do evil is also good - good, I say, because it makes the good part better by making it voluntary and independent, not bound by necessity but free to decide for itself." Pelagius
"Is it possible then possible for a man not to sin? Such a claim is indeed a hard one and a bitter pill for sinners to swallow; it pains the ears of all who desire to live unrighteously. Who will find it easy now to fulfil the demands of righteousness, when there are some who find it hard even to listen to them?" An unknown Pelagian
"When will a man guilty of any crime or sin accept with a tranquil mind that his wickedness is a product of his own will, not of necessity, and allow what he now strives to attribute to nature to be ascribed to his own free choice? It affords endless comfort to transgressors of the divine law if they are able to believe that their failure to do something is due to inability rather then disinclination, since they understand from their natural wisdom that no one can be judged for failing to do the impossible and that what is justifiable on grounds of impossibility is either a small sin or none at all." An unknown Pelagian
"Under the plea that it is impossible not to sin, they are given a false sense of security in sinning...Anyone who hears that it is not possible for him to be without sin will not even try to be what he judges to be impossible, and the man who does not try to be without sin must perforce sin all the time, and all the more boldly because he enjoys the false security of believing that it is impossible for him not to sin...But if he were to hear that he is able not to sin, then he would have exerted himself to fulfil what he now knows to be possible when he is striving to fulfil it, to achieve his purpose for the most part, even if not entirely." An unknown Pelagian
"Consider first whether that which is such that a man cannot be without it ought to be described as sin at all; for everything which cannot be avoided is now put down to nature but it is impious to say that sin is inherent in nature, because in this way the author of nature is being judged at fault." An unknown Pelagian
"How can it be proper to call sin by that name if, like other natural things, it cannot be avoided, since all sin is to be attributed to the free choice of the will, not the defects of nature." An unknown Pelagian
No one has prooved any of these quotes to be wrong. |
| 2007/10/31 12:06 | Profile | roaringlamb Member

Joined: 2003/6/11 Posts: 1519 Santa Cruz California
| Re: | | Quote:
No one has prooved any of these quotes to be wrong.
Should I post the volumes that have been written since his lifetime showing him and his view to be heresy?
_________________ patrick heaviside
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| 2007/10/31 12:28 | Profile | whyme Member

Joined: 2007/4/3 Posts: 293
| Re: | | When Jesus tells unbelievers that the reason they do not believe is because they are children of the devil, I am theologically comfortable that the sinner is in much worse shape than a lack of clear thinking. When the Scriptures have us all as either slaves of righteousness or slaves of sin or servants of God or servants of the devil, and not in some man centered limbo, I am comfortable that something is required more than persuasion. When it takes the death of the Son of God to save me, then I am thoroughly convinced that my sin has affected me much more than temporarily marred my sensibilities. When God has to make me born again before I can "see" ( or understand ) the kingdom of God, I am persuaded that when saved I have passed from death to life and not just been illuminated to the truth. When an overwhelming supermajority of very holy evangelical saints believe that Jesus is God and that man inherits original sin, then I am certain that anyone who disagrees with those doctrines is in all likelihood heretical although that is ultimately within God's overriding sovereign judgement. So far this week, we have seen on the forum more than enough blindness as to who God is and the same blindness as to the true condition of natural man. |
| 2007/10/31 12:54 | Profile | roaringlamb Member

Joined: 2003/6/11 Posts: 1519 Santa Cruz California
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Nothing here about natural ability. This is written of those who were false teachers.
Written to believers, who had been regenerated by the Spirit. nothing here about natural ability to change oneself from natural to spiritual.
The "us" is Christians, the promises mean absolutely nothing to natural men.
Here's a great passage supporting monergism, and the need of God revealing truth to man, and creating spiritual life in him.
You forgot the verse before it, "no man can come to me unless the Father which has sent me draw him."
Again monergistic revelation, and renewing of the heart produces faith to believe in Christ.
Yes, but look at the response after Jesus says this., "we are Abraham's children and have never bee in bondage." Christ would go to tell these people, "ye are of your father the devil, and his deeds you desire to do."
These did not convert themselves, nor did they become regenerate of their own will.
Again, this does not imply anything about man regenerating himself through natural revelation. the grace of God has been revealed to all men, but not all men receive the grace that brings about conversion. Natural man hates the light, and is an enemy of God, and as such, he would rather spit upon God's truth, or nail it to a cross.
Again, we must understand that either "all" means every single human being ever created, or we must allow common sense, and Scriptural truth to prevail, and thus see that "all" does not mean "all" all of the time.
For example when we read Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that [b]all the world[/b] should be taxed, does this mean that India, Mexico, and the United States payed taxes too? of course not, it means all the Roman world.
Now on the opposite view, I would say that[b]all have sinned[/b]. But you would say, infants have not sinned, so the "all" cannot mean "all".
If God willed that all men be saved, then every single person would be saved, as His will cannot and will not be thwarted.
Again, Paul did not create the birth in these whom he was writing, but rather God regenerated them through the words which Paul spoke to them.
Written by David who knew God already, so it would be similar to a Christian praying for God to show us His lovingkindeness.
An unregenerate person would never pray this, as he wants nothing to do with God.
If anything, this verse actually supports what I have been saying, that God alone is the One who gives the new birth.
"Of His own will, begat He us with the word of truth..."
This word is Christ, or the Gospel. The Gospel is the means the Spirit uses to create faith in men.
Again, here we see the word as the means by which God births life into men, and if anything this shows that God and God alone births this life.
So far there has not been any mention of natural men being birthed through revelation apart from the word of God through the Spirit.
This is written to Christians, not unbelievers. Those who would by the Spirit be able to fulfill this. It's not given to natural men as command to pull one's self up by their boot straps.
This explains the reward for those who do not obey the truth, nothing about ability, or revelation.
Again, same thing as before. No mention of ability or being regenerated by natural revelation.
Spoken to the apostles, who were Christians, this is not to unbelieving people. It has to do again with the word, its effect upon people. Of course the word without the Spirit is dead, however the Spirit quickens, or gives life to whom He will through the preaching of the word.
No mention of ability, or regeneration by revelation. Again written to believers, not unbelievers.
The "them" is those whom the Father has given to the Son. Nothing at all to do with unbelievers, or regeneration through revelation.
Written to Christians, who had received faith, and had been justified by faith. Not written to unbelievers. Again, no mention of natural ability or regeneration.
If anything this passage supports monergistic salvation. God reveals Christ to men, and as we see, God says that Paul is a "chosen vessel"(v.15), and Paul later writes, "But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:" (Gal 1:15-16)
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You know, those who believe that regeneration is involuntary and physical do not and cannot believe that the gospel has any tendency at all to regenerate the soul? Preaching, in their view, is utterly useless. Persuading, reasoning, and disputing like Paul did really has no influence to regenerate the heart! In their view.
I don't know who says there is a physical change? The Spirit uses the proclamation of Christ, and Him crucified, and resurrected for the sins of men to give faith.
A natural man will not believe this message, as it is foolishness, or a stumbling block to him. The simplicity of the Gospel is an offence to those who seek wisdom, or who want a savior other than the Christ revealed in Scripture.
_________________ patrick heaviside
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| 2007/10/31 13:24 | Profile | Logic Member

Joined: 2005/7/17 Posts: 1791
| Re: | | Quote:
whyme wrote: I am comfortable that something is required more than persuasion...
Because of stuborness. Surely it couldn't be an incapability, otherwase you would be innocent.
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When God has to make me born again before I can "see" ( or understand ) the kingdom of God, I am persuaded that when saved I have passed from death to life and not just been illuminated to the truth.
You are saying that God must save you before you can "see" ( or understand ) the kingdom of God, that is true.
However, you must aknowledg the fact that you are a sinner and repent and put your faith on the correct object(Christ) before you can be saved. That does not require some special so called "regeneration".
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So far this week, we have seen on the forum more than enough blindness as to who God is and the same blindness as to the true condition of natural man.
Then I would suggest you pray for sight. Man is not incapable of repenting without so called "regeneration", otherwise one who wasn't regenerated would have a valid claim against God on the day of judgment. [b]God:[/b] Why didn't you have faith as I commanded? [b]Man:[/b] Because Jesus didn't lead me to it. OR "You didn't regenerate me in order to have faith. |
| 2007/10/31 13:54 | Profile |
| Re: | | Quote:
JESSE ASKED:
RoaringLamb, what is your take on all these scriptures which teach regeneration by revelation?
2Pet 2:20 1Pet 1:22 2Pet 1:2-3 John 6:63 John 6:45 John 8:32 Titus 2:11-12 1Tim 2:4 1Cor 4:15 Ps 17:7 James 1:18 1Pet 1:23 James 1:21-22 Rom 2:8 2Thes 1:8 John 15:3 1Pet 4:17 John 17:17 Rom 6:17 Acts 9:4-6
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ROARING LAMB ANSWERED:
Nothing here about natural ability.
RoaringLamb,
Those scriptures were to show that [b]Regeneration is through Revelation.[/b] And those scriptures explicitly proved it. But somehow you seemed to avoid the obvious by claiming that they said nothing about natural ability. I didn't claim that they taught natural ability. I claimed that they taught [b]regeneration through revelation[/b].
But the scriptures clearly show God appealing to man's natural ability. The Doctrine of man's [b]Natural Ability[/b] is a presupposition throughout the entire bible:
"And the Lord said unto Cain, why art thou wroth and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? And if thou doest nt well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, but thou shalt rule over him." Gen 4:6-7
Choose you this day whom ye will serve; Joshua 24:15
Wash yourself, make yourself clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as snow; though they be read like crimson, they shall be as wool. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it. Isaiah 1:16-20
Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. Isaiah 55:6-7
Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground. Hosea 10:12
Turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Ezekiel 18:30
Cast away from you all your transgressions
..make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit Ezekiel 18:31
For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye. Ezekiel 18:32
Return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. Jeremiah 18:11
Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the Lord your God; and the Lord will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you. Jeremiah 26:13
Save yourselves from his untoward generation. Act 2:40
God
commands all men every where to repent Acts 17:30
Ye have obeyed from the heart Romans 6:17
Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh 1Corinthians 7:1
If any man therefore purge himself 2Timothy 2:21
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. James 4:2
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners, and purify your hearts, ye double minded. James 4:8
Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep; let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. James 4:9
Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord James 4:10
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth 1Peter 1:22
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelations 22:17
(The whole concept of "your own strength" is absurd. No strength is our own. Any strength we have is strength God has given us.)
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| 2007/10/31 14:00 | | roaringlamb Member

Joined: 2003/6/11 Posts: 1519 Santa Cruz California
| Re: | | Quote:
(The whole concept of "your own strength" is absurd. No strength is our own. Any strength we have is strength God has given us.)
And any faith we have is not from ourselves, but rather is the result of a new heart, as is any ability to obey God's commands.
Your statement above contradicts the Pelagian thought you are defending here.
This is what I was trying to draw out from your own words. You yourself admit that a man cannot convert himself, so why do you continue to push this type of theology? I do not understand.
When you preach, do you believe the Spirit must produce faith in the hearers, or that He must convict them of their sin? Or do you expect them on their own to believe the Gospel? _________________ patrick heaviside
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| 2007/10/31 14:21 | Profile |
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