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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Pelagius & Pelagianism

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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

BeYeDoers wrote:
Quote:
This is most false. Because the more one knows about God the more one will love Him because HE is evidently beautiful and awsome!



Both scripture and experience deny this. Washer is correct. However...once you have been regenerated, your statement becomes true.

Then, please, prove it by giving those scriptures.
However, no one will use experience as proof.

 2007/10/30 12:32Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb, your analogy is flawed. The man is not guily of not being able to pay the debt, he is guilty of getting in debt to start with. The command of the bill collector being violated is "pay your bills on time and don't get in debt." This is what we are guilty of...sin. We were commanded not to do it but we did. God has not commanded us to work our way out of debt. This would be an impossible command, for there is only ONE name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved...and that is by His grace through faith alone. It is our responsibility for getting into debt, not getting out of it.



How would you re-phrase it brother?

I hope that it did not seem that I was hinting at man earning his salvation, but rather showing that it is not unjust for someone to demand payment even though there is nothing to pay with. That is of course in the instance of a man getting himself into the problem in the first place. :-D

The point I am trying to make is that Adam's sin has effected us all, and left us in debt, and without the ability to fulfill the commands of God. That is until a man's heart is regenerated by the Holy Spirit, then it becomes a joy to obey God, and misery to commit sin against Him. But the natural man does not posses such guilt because he is natural and acts according to his nature.

He may desire to be moral according to his own standards, but those fall well short of God's.

I look forward to seeing how you re-phrase this. Blessings to you brother.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/10/30 12:51Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in me.

Your part from your own strength is to abide in the vine, His part is to bring the fruit.



So the answer to the question is, NO.

The challenge in these types of discussions is to realize that the keeping of the Law by human effort is not the same as bearing the fruit of the Spirit. The Pharisees to a great degree kept the Law and even Paul said that touching the Law he was blameless; yet he did not have the Holy Spirit. The Law may restrain the thorns, but it cannot produce the Fruit of the Spirit.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8)


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/10/30 13:20Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
If so, why do you think that God would command us the imposible?



Unless one takes a Quaker view of the universality of the indwelling Holy Spirit then the unregenerate need to 'begin' in the Spirit. There has to be this beginning in which the individual is baptized into Jesus Christ. If they are 'in' Christ they are a NEW creature. This is far more than repentance. this is more than a patch job- this is God working in us [i]both[/i] to will and to do His good pleasure. The primary sin of the Jews was that they did always resist the Holy Ghost. The tree needed to be changed constitutionally- not physically but spiritually.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/10/30 13:38Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
Quote:
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in me.

Your part from your own strength is to abide in the vine, His part is to bring the fruit.

So the answer to the question is, NO.

But, notice that is is our part to abide.
every day we must choose to walk after the spirit that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us.

 2007/10/30 13:53Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Your will is a slave to its desires. Man has the nature of Adam.. Adam desired to be his own god. Natural man desires himself above God. He always chooses according to his nature and according to the desires of his heart. Man is not just unwilling to choose God, he unceasingly desires the contrary. The problem is always with the heart, not the mind. Making a bootstrap change to the desires of his heart, a man is unable to do. He needs first and foremost a change of or a new heart, not a change of mind; that comes later. All men apart from God choose against God. None seeks after Him. Staggering odds for the free will crowd to overcome. If Adam and Eve in their moral purity couldn't overcome the devil and their own desires, please tell me how natural man and a little wooing are going to make you or me fare any better?

 2007/10/30 13:57Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
But, notice that is is our part to abide.



Brother have you ever heard or seen a branch striving to "abide" in the vine it is attached to?

The point is not so much that we maintain our grip on Christ(law), but rather that He has a grip upon us(gospel). It is liberating when one realizes this truth, and obeys from a childlike love rather than a slavish fear of reprimand.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/10/30 13:58Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
If Adam and Eve in their moral purity couldn't overcome the devil and their own desires, please tell me how natural man and a little wooing are going to make you or me fare any better?



Excellent point brother? sister?


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/10/30 14:03Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Quote:

roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
If Adam and Eve in their moral purity couldn't overcome the devil and their own desires, please tell me how natural man and a little wooing are going to make you or me fare any better?



Excellent point brother? sister?




Bother, Brother.

 2007/10/30 14:10Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Bother, Brother.



Just wanted to be sure :-D


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/10/30 14:13Profile





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