moe-mac

I believe that I clearly and biblically answered all your points. If you still choose to believe what you have been taught to believe, that is your right.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Where in scripture is this resurrection that proceeds the rapture, if not in Rev.20:5?

Blessings Greg

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Greg

moe wrote: The resurrection does not proceed the rapture, but precedes, nor did I say that.

How did you arrive that I said that and if you didn't arrive at that, why did you make this statement "Where in scripture is this resurrection that proceeds the rapture, if not in Rev.20:5?.

Jesus has already been resurrected and sitting at the right hand of the Father making intersessions for Christians, therefore that first fruit resurrection precedes the rapture and because of that resurrection and HIS sacrifice at the Cross, the dead in Christ at the rapture of the church will rise first, and right after that, those who remain and are alive will be caught up together with them and HIM and we shall forever be with the Lord. We shall not all sleep as Paul says. I would ask, was Moses resurrected. The Bible says he died, so if he died, he was resurrected or he wouldn't have appeared to Peter, James and John with Jesus. Since we already have bodily resurrections events and especially the resuurection of OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST, the first-fruits, it puts a different light on the post-trib theory to me. I may be wrong but understood that you were saying, in the original post that there would be 2 more resurrections to come. If this were true, then there would be three resurrections. I don't see 3 resurrection events in God's Word. If you know where those 3 different resurrection references are, please point me to them.

You might be referring to the 144,000 Jews that will be saved in the tribulation, as a result of seeing the church raptured and also seeing HIS Great Power and the Great Glory of JESUS being revealed to HIS people the Jews. I think this subject it is located in the last Book of the Bible, right where you are quoted from.

Please don't get angry with me in this discussion. I mean no offense. A pre-trib or post trib view would not having any bearing on whether a saint was a saint or not. The main thing is that we all know Jesus is the way, the life and the truth and no one comes to the Father except by HIM and making sure we keep the main thing the main thing.
moe

Dear Saints Greetings in JEsus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Brethren as you know i tend toward a pre-trib scenario in which the catching away conincides with Jesus' return in the clouds as Paul said. Now i disagree with the pre-tib view because the tribulation is largly viewed as the time of God's Judgement on the wicked which it is but it is also the time in which the Church is most greatly needed to minister to those who are brought to Salvation in those days. God has never taken His people out of a Judgement situation but Poured out Grace to go through it and this time is no different.

The bottom line dear saints is that we are soon to find out. Judgement begins at the House of God as we are the standard bearers and Peter said that the righteous shall scarecly be saved...it doesn't sound to me like this Judgment will be a cakewalk. i do believe some things are poised to happen to us Christians which will prove our Faith and Try it by fire. This has long been happening to the saints in China, the southeast Asian countries, some of the African nations also. At some point we here in the west will have to endure not only discrimination or laws which target us but even imprisonment, torture, death and so on in following with the suffering which Jesus endured. it is this suffering which will make the Jew jealous such that he comes to repentance and JEsus. The bible doesn't say only 144000 Jews will be saved, in Zechariah the word says that 2/3 will be cut off and the remaining 3rd will be tried by fire, that's more than 144000...also these must experience God through the Ministry of His Church. until the Church makes Israel Jealous, we ain't going nowhere and more than anything we have been enabling Israel's continued rebellion against God by coddling her and more importantly by not carrying God in a manner which will make Israel jealous and want to have interest in God. Jacob has a knack for seeing through pretense and one of the reasons which has him disinterested in the things of God is that we the Church haven't represented God as we ought. instead Japheth has oft used GOd as means to gain wealth/influence and power and Jacob even in his rebellion now sees through that ruse...Saints i believe like Art Katz but more importantly i believe this is the Heart of God on this matter, that our suffering in the trial of fire which is the tribulation at the hands of the agents of the enemy in tending to Jacob as he runs from the destruction of Israel which is soon coming is what will make him jealous. He will remember Him that he pierced because Jacob will see Him in our faces, in our homes in our Loving of he who is unloveable, and then will Jacob repent and be Saved.AMEN.

Many people believe that Israel as she stands now is fulfilment of Ezekiel 36 and so many believe that the rapture is soon because Israel is in existance. Saints this isn't the Israel of God, this man's attempt which God is setting up to destroy at the hands of the Muslim. dear saints, read carefully and prayerfull Ezekiel 36 and you will see clearly that the picture portrayed of Israel in that chapter is vastly different from what we know as Israel now...When she falls, how then will we be able to say the rapture is near?

i believe our understanding of what ISrael is, what America is and indeed the state of His Church is about to be revised in Judgment. We have largly not come to terms with God as Judge...we're about to meet the so-called O.T. God...

may we NOT be found wanting nor unable to abide the fire by His Grace.AMEN.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

p.s. this is a thread bro Rahman started on the Church in America and it asks some rather pointed questions. if you feel led to, check it out [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=20456&forum=35&11]here, Are we smoke and no Fire?[/url]

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Farai Bamu

Ironman spoke:[b]The bible doesn't say only 144,000 Jews will be saved,[/b] in Zechariah the word says that 2/3 will be cut off and the remaining 3rd will be tried by fire, that's more than 144000...


Moe said: Jesus gave John a... ringside side seat on what would take place here. Jesus did not tell John all of it, but told him to seal up the book. Here is the scripture on the 144,000 Jews being saved in the tribulation. As you read the verses you can plainly see they had a new name and were singing a new song and they became a new creation, behold old things had passed and away and all things had become new. Sounds like they were filled with the spirit to me. (saved) We as Christians gentiles are buried with HIM in baptism raised again to walk again in newness of life. It is HIM that works in to will and to do HIS good pleasure.
Rev 14:1-3
14:1[b]Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads[/b]. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
(from New International Version)

The remainder of people left behind after the 144,000 Jews are saved will take the mark of the beast and this event will take place after the rapture of the church. It is easy for me to see that many will take the mark of the beast because they people won't stand up for Jesus before the rapture, in their stance in everyday situations, but they go with the culture (world) and the coin the phrase or attitude of "What's God got to do with it". If people that won't stand up for Jesus now, just imagine if their earthly life depended upon standing for Jesus, what the answer will be. They are more worried about heir earthly life than the eternal one, which is the part where one chooses to be raptured. Jesus offers to all. He paid the debt. Works won't cut, but no works will verify the lack of HIS presence in a life. At least that is how I read it anyway. If yourself and or anyone else differs on this subject Ironman, I welcome comments on the the above scripture, as to what it means to you. Please don't make the mistake of saying the Bible doesn't say it though as you can plainly read. The Bible does say it too as you can see.
moe

bro Moe
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose BLood we are Saved.AMEN.

i read what you had written as though you implied that only 144000 would be saved and i don't believe that to be the case. indeed there are 144000 who are sealed from each tribe, of that we can be sure. however that isn't the total number in that these 144000 do minister to their brethren i believe. these may be the very first of all the Jews who are converted in that period. to me there is something unique of this group hence the prominent mention of them. also i think it is important to note that not everyone who lives through the trib will take the mark either:

from Rev 20:

[b][color=0000FF]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;[/color][/b]

so some are killed for not taking the mark, others don't take the mark but remain alive at His return. these make up part of those who rule with Christ 1000 yrs, these are among those killed for Him over the ages.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

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Farai Bamu

Ironman wrote: also i think it is important to note that not everyone who lives through the trib will take the mark either:


moe coped and pasted from last post: It was noted.

[b]The remainder of people left behind after the 144,000 Jews are saved will take the mark of the beast[/b] and this event will take place after the rapture of the church.

You want to read this passage and what is before and after: also i think it is important to note that not everyone who lives through the trib will take the mark either:

Rom 11:25-26

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
(from New International Version)

bro Moe Greetings in Jesus' Name by WHose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

indeed all Israel will be saved. however that doesn't change that not everyone in the trib will take the mark, Rev 20 clearly says that, it says also that those who come through the trib will make up some of the ones who Rule with Jesus 1000 yrs.

Rev 20 vs4:

[b][color=0000FF]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;[/color][/b]

there are some who don't take the mark of the beast, nor bow before it and they reign with Christ. also i do believe that something as momentous as the Church being caught up would have been mentioned quite plainly in the context of the 144000. also Rev 20 vs 4 says that this is the first resurrection...when Paul talks of the catching away, he says the dead in Christ shall rise first. There is no resurrection mentioned elsewhere in the Revelation like this except the first one which happens at His return in Rev 20. There is a second resurrection also after the 1000 yrs in which the rest of the dead are raised up and Judged. if the whole Church has been caught up, how come the book of Life is mentioned and it is plain that there are some among the dead written therein?

as for the full number of Gentiles coming in, that doesn't usher in the rapture, Paul doesn't say that. The purpose of saving the Gentiles is that God may bring the Jews to Jealousy, we as the Church ought to carry God in a way which will draw the Jew into Jesus. Also in the letters to the 7 Churches, there is no mention of the whole Church being caught up because there are things which 5 of those Churches need to repent of. yes i know Smyrna is said to be saved from the hour of trial which is coming upon the world but the word kept there means being kept through not out of it...

The tribulation represents for the Church of Christ a period of ultimate trying to prove our faith to be genuine or not. the judgements of God will not be poured out on us, but the enemy will sure persecute us in response to God's judgement on him and his.God did not spare Paul, Peter and the early Church the persecutions of those days, at the beginning of the age, He shined through them as they endured, how much more do you think He wants to shine through us at the end of the age?

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

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Farai Bamu

Ironman wrote: God did not spare Paul, Peter the early Church the persecutions of those days, at the beginning of the age, He shined through them as they endured, how much more do you think He wants to shine through us at the end of the age?

moe wrote: Amen he did not spare Paul, Peter from physical death, but HE did spare their souls. I suspect that Peter, Paul, are part of the 24 elders talked about revelations. We as Christians are to be most concerned about is our soul and not our for our physical bodies. That is not a natural way of thinking. Only one way a person can see this way of thinking and that's through HIS Spirit.

In this life we will have many troubles, but Jesus has already overcome the world. Could it be the 7 churches are representative of the periods of time of the church. Laodicea really fits what much of the church looks like in todays world. When a Christian stands up for Jesus, the world will always bump them around. This is good evidence that one is a Christian when you observe them being bumped around by the world and those who worship false Gods. Only the Spirit of the Lord can give us peace when the world bumps us around. How many do you see now in Christians do you see in US Government getting bumped around by the world on abortion and the homosexual rights issues. They are called bigots for what they stand for, but I must also say thay all the stances in the world has no eternal effect unless it is a result of HIS SPIRIT and done for HIS glory and HIS purposes. Not by works of righteousness. If HIS SPIRIT dwells in us, we will have HIS works, not ours, but HIS. Not by our power or our might, but by HIS SPIRIT.

I certainly don't have all the answers on the last days and the rapture of the church. I do know that narrow is the way that leads to life and wide is the way that leads to destruction and few therein be that find the narrow way. Those who do find the narrow way will be totally dependant upon HIM and it will be by HIS strength that we can stand against the evil one. The devil don't like to even here the name Jesus. All the devil's people who oppose HIS ways, HIS, plans, and HIS purposes are the devil's servants. This is how we know who is of the devil. Who are the devil's people? All those who aren't God's people and haven't been washed and cleansed by and through Jesus's shed blood on the cross. Once we all the devil's people before we were saved by his blood on the cross and as Christians we are servants of the most high God and we are no longer servant of the devil and in bondage to sin. If anyone endures through anything, it want be in their strength, but HIS.

Rom 6:17-18
17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

1 Cor 15:57
57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Cor 9:15
15 Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!









In revelations description of the trib it's says that those who saved and overcame, they did it by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony.

I am fairly new to posting on these forums but am intensely interested in seeing this discussion adding my comments on another thread along the same lines. I would not dare disparage another brother or sister’s walk with Christ because we do not see eye to eye on this subject, but I do believe there is going to be such great disillusionment and despair and departing from the faith because of those whose expectations were not fulfilled. It is not just a doctrinal issue, and will not be just a doctrinal issue. As Corrie ten Boon and many others like her, and the many Jews who endured the holocaust, it was a matter of faith or absolute apostasy. Many of us have had tests of faith, but I dare say that very few of us have had anything like the kind of faith that will be required when those whom we love are put into the kind of position that many have already been in around the world, and like those during so many of the times of the history of Israel so plainly chronicled in the writings of Jeremiah. I had an experience several years ago which I will not take the time to go into in which my faith was tested, and having been reared in the pre-trib tradition, I was praying for the Lord to soon come and take me out of all this mess. I had a dream, and as I said on an earlier post, those who have a dream let them tell the dream, but the Word of God is our bread and our proofs, not dreams and visions. I thank God for the dream however because it made me start searching the scripture diligently. I talked to my pastor who had been a pre-trib preacher. He was honest enough to tell me that he had some questions of his own and asked me to pray about it, to do my research and he would as well and we would come back together in about a month to talk about it. In the meantime, about three weeks later he preached his first message that gently prepared the congregation for the possibility that what we had believed on the subject was a mistake. And for years we researched and compared notes. These abundantly simple observations that follow are just a few to add to the excellent study that has already been presented. And let me also add, that I appreciate so very much the spirit and attitude of the vast majority that post on SI. May God raise up a host of sincere seekers of the truth like those referred to in the Acts that seek to know whether what they have heard or read is the truth. Too bad, sometimes, just because of name recognition, or prominence, whatever is preached is swallowed like fish bait. There is far too much at stake for that kind of loyalty.

Jesus said in the context of prayer these words:
Luke 18:6 - 8 (NKJV) 6Then the Lord said, “Hear what the unjust judge said. 7And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long (delay long) with them? 8I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”
It is apparent from the last verse in this parable that it is about more than prayer. In fact the whole context is pleading with a judge for justice. But then He ends the parable with a reference to His returning and the very consistent message that is found all through every reference to the end times, in relation to apostasy “when the Son of Man comes”. There is certainly room for debate in many of the parables where those who want to take the pre-trib side but in each of the parables regarding “the when” (Greek tote- at that time), there is the sense of delay. There is the servant that begins to beat his fellow servants because he says the Lord delays his coming. The parable of the 10 virgins finds all of them asleep with only half of them sleeping prepared, the others frantically trying too little, too late, but the call is at midnight, the darkest hour.

The use of the illustration of Noah and of Lot, certainly does not indicate an escape from tribulation (see my other post on that subject) but ONLY from the wrath of God, and that escape is only at the time of final annihilation of the wicked and only after every means of mercy has been totally exhausted. The same is true of the Egyptians and the Children of Israel. Israel passes over the Red Sea while simultaneously the Egyptians are destroyed, and that only after all the years of tribulations alongside of the judgments of God, where God makes a distinction at one point between those in Goshen (which means “drawing near”) and the Egyptians, leading up to that final devastating judgment (of which there are plenty of parallels in the Revelation) in which only those covered by the blood escape… led out as a victorious army without having to fire a shot. There is the parallel of Daniel. He and his companions were certainly not saved out of tribulation but saved in it whereas those who were trying to deliver them into tribulations were destroyed. Even (and how can you escape this parallel) during the image of the “beast” being set up and a command given to bow down and worship the image… the saints were commanded to bow but refused to bow. The tribulation times are prophesied in Daniel and he and his companions illustrated the faith that will be required for us to endure it.

I said in the other post, but will repeat it briefly; “tribulation” is the appointment of saints of God. There is a vast difference between the wrath of God to which His children are not appointed, and the wrath of man and the wrath of the devil to which we have always been appointed, which is the very essence of tribulation. Tribulation is the appointment of the saints of God, not the world. The world as in Judges and all through the history of the Israel is the tribulum that separates the chaff from the wheat, the faithful remnant from the majority. It was the majority (of Judah) that refused to believe the tribulation that was coming, that gave Jeremiah such a hard time. But it was the believing minority represented by Daniel, and the Hebrew children that prepared themselves for the captivity/tribulation to come by purposing in their hearts that they would not be defiled.

What in the world would be the point of all the warnings in Daniel and the Revelation not to mention the gospels for a world that does not believe the Word of God or have any intention of worshipping the Lamb of God, but will most definitely take the mark. My the world and the worldly church member already is so mired in “eating, drinking, marrying (or the alternatives)… buying, selling, and wrapped up in sports, entertainment, and etc. so much so that NOW they would not dare give up a $2 raise to be in the house of God. Any of the above is excuse enough to put God at the bottom of the list of priorities. What will keep them from taking the mark?

And then there is the question of “who are the elect”?
Matthew 24:24 - 25 (NKJV) 24For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you beforehand.

Matthew 24:30 - 31 (KJV) 30And then (tote) shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Are we to suddenly relegate the “elect” to the Jews at this point in the narrative as I have heard some do, whereas there are all those many scriptures that give that title to those of us who have heard and obeyed the Gospel? Such as the favorite of so many: Romans 8:33fl. It is abundantly evident that God’s elect in Colossians 3:12; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:2, and etc. are the saved. But then this scripture clearly tells us the ‘when’ they will be gathered. It is “immediately after the tribulation of those days” (Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:24).

Then there is the subject of how He is coming that I do not believe I have seen in these posts… and that is in clouds:
Acts 1:9 - 11 (KJV) 9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


Matthew 24:29 - 30 (KJV) 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. See also Mark 13:24-26.

Revelation 1:7 (KJV) 7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


Revelation 14:14 - 15 (KJV) 14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

Then there is that thorny issue of the Last Trumpet and the significance of trumpets throughout the Word of God for those who are willing to spend the time studying it.
Matthew 24:31 (KJV) 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Corinthians 15:51 - 52 (KJV) 51Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


Revelation 8:2 (KJV) 2And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Which one is the LAST ONE? Thank God I know about one in the Old Testament and I “sho nuff” know what it means…JUBILEE!

There was the sound of the trumpet on the seventh day, on the seventh round, while the Children of Israel were marching around Jericho… and that trumpet was the trumpet of victory over their enemy.

The trumpets were sounded to gather the people together, to prepare for war, to declare the end of war, and etc. I suspect in this case, just as in 1 Samuel 13:3,
2 Samuel 2: 28, 2 Samuel 15:10 (wups, he like the antichrist blew his horn too early), 2 Samuel 18:16, and so forth, the trumpet that is going to gather us in is the one sounding the end of battle… the trumpet of triumph.

Then there is the question of how many times the Lord is going to come back.
Hebrews 9:28 (KJV) 28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

This verses ties all that is above together:
1 Thessalonians 4:16 - 17 (KJV) 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Clint

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Clint Thornton