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 public prayer?

(Matthew 6:5-18 NKJV) "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. {6} "But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. {7} "And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. {8} "Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him."

Does your Church condone and allow public prayer by clergy and laity? This shameful activity is quite clearly condemned by Jesus in this passage from Matthew, so how is it that fundamentalist Churches that hold the Bible as the literal word of God allow this?

Bub

 2007/10/21 22:46
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re: public prayer?

Nice to hear from you Bubbaguy.

Perhaps we should specify what we mean by 'public prayer'. If we mean speaking prayers for ceremonial pomp and circumstance or as a political statement then this type of prayer could be vanity.

However, we can hardly understand Jesus' disdain for showy prayer to mean that we cannot pray in front of one another, or even in large groups. Acts 1---And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.

These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

So, prayer can obviously be a group activity. It's not for show, but it can be 'public,'...albiet a rather intimate public. ;-)

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2007/10/22 1:04Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: public prayer?

Quote:
how is it that fundamentalist Churches that hold the Bible as the literal word of God allow this?


It probably because they regard the whole bible as a complete revelation rather than picking and choosing the bits we believe in as you do. You accuse evangelicals of idolatry but you have made an idol your inner witness. You serve it rather than the God revealed in the scriptures.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/10/22 13:49Profile
vsuarez
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 52


 Re:

Perhaps we should consider Jesus' prayer just before He raised Lazarus from the dead. This was indeed prayer and it was also public. I think it's like what someone else said here, it's not the act of prayer but the intent, what's motivating you to do it. The emphasis is that the Pharisees' were doing to be seen.

I think one can say the same for healing and miracles. Is it okay to heal in the public? Yes. But, what if your motive to heal is tainted by a desire to amass self-importance?

I think discretion and sensitivity to the Holy Spirit is the key to balancing this issue. Once He is in full control (filled with the Spirit) then we need not be concerned about these things. For He (the Spirit) will always manifest the will of God and magnify Jesus, thus causing others who may witness a prayer or manifestation to give glory to God. This is the same for works. Christ exhorts us to do good works, which bring glory to His Father. But, there are works which are done for the purpose of self-glorying and others that are for God-glorying.

The essence is the attitude of the heart. That's my understanding.

 2007/10/22 14:55Profile









 Re:

Ron, It is not a matter of the Inner Light as it has been revealed to me, but rather the Inner Light as it has been revealed to the entire Religious Society of Friends (Quakers). We do not have public prayer because of the instruction that I quoted. But we do ask members and attenders to attend to our personal concerns in their private prayers. Thus, if I have a concern about the health of a relative or friend, for example, I would rise and ask that those in attendance "hold in the Light" my relative or friend in their personal prayers and explain this concern for them. In this manner we encourage the personal prayers of members and attenders while adhering to the instructions of Jesus regarding prayer.

Bub

 2007/10/22 18:33
BrianPaul
Member



Joined: 2007/10/3
Posts: 68
Moorpark, CA

 Re:

Quote:
For He (the Spirit) will always manifest the will of God and magnify Jesus, thus causing others who may witness a prayer or manifestation to give glory to God. This is the same for works. Christ exhorts us to do good works, which bring glory to His Father. But, there are works which are done for the purpose of self-glorying and others that are for God-glorying.


amen.


_________________
Brian

 2007/10/22 19:57Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re: public prayer?

Quote:

bubbaguy wrote:{7} "And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. {8} "Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him."

Does your Church condone and allow public prayer by clergy and laity? This shameful activity is quite clearly condemned by Jesus....

Bub




[u][b]Revelation 4:8[/b][/u]

The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. [u][b]And they do not rest day or night, saying: [/b][/u]


“ Holy, holy, holy,
Lord God Almighty,
Who was and is and is to come!”



They never rest.




Miccah


_________________
Christiaan

 2007/10/23 1:33Profile









 Re:

Compton,

Yes, I see what you mean about prayer in a closed group of believers. Yet, the vast majority of prayer in Church services today fits the description of "heaping up words." It sounds good, but is its own reward. In the long run, it alienates attenders from the actual worship of God.

The same goes for the swearing of oaths. The vast majority of "Christians" will swear an oath in court when asked to do so. But Jesus has told us "let your yes be yes" and not to swear oaths.

I get very confused about Christians who claim that the Bible is God's literal word, dismiss the mountains of evidence for evolution, and yet swear oaths and readily attend Church services filled with public prayer that is a pile of lofty b.s. The words of Jesus are clearly meant to be taken literally, and the story of Creation is also clearly meant to be metaphorical and a parable. The clergy of these Churches make no effort to correct these mistaken ideas and, in fact, encourage them. They build their congregational houses on sand, so to speak, and in the end of times these congregations will be the first to flee the Word of God because their theological foundations will readily crumble beneath them.

Bub

 2007/10/23 10:37
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Quote:
bubbaguy wrote:
Compton,

I get very confused about Christians who claim that the Bible is God's literal word, dismiss the mountains of evidence for evolution, and yet swear oaths and readily attend Church services filled with public prayer that is a pile of lofty b.s.



Evolution. Do you believe in the Big Bang theories as well?


Quote:
The words of Jesus are clearly meant to be taken literally, and the story of Creation is also clearly meant to be metaphorical and a parable.



Who is teaching you this? Is it a scientist or your church?

Quote:
The clergy of these Churches make no effort to correct these mistaken ideas and, in fact, encourage them.



Quote:
They build their congregational houses on sand, so to speak, and in the end of times these congregations will be the first to flee the Word of God because their theological foundations will readily crumble beneath them.



Well, if you believe in evolution, something will just pop up in the future anyways, so why worry about it? If you believe in the Big Bang theories (multiple big bangs is the fad theroy amoung the scientist), how can you truly believe in "the end times" These theories are bases on an ever expanding, then contracting universe, over multiple different times. So will the "end of days" come with a bang, or the revolution of the next Big Bang?


God = creation in 6 days
man = scientist belief in evolution


I choose God.

Miccah


_________________
Christiaan

 2007/10/23 11:02Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

bubbaguy wrote:

Quote:
dismiss the mountains of evidence for evolution



Are you aware, of how opposite evolution, and the Bible are?

Let me just show you a tiny list of the contradictions between the Genisis account, and the evolution account.

Cross reference the numbers from the "Genisis" section with the numbers from the "Evolution" section.


[b]Genesis[/b]

1.Earth before sun

2.Sea before dry land

3.Sea before atmosphere

4.Light on earth before sun

5.Earth before stars

6.Earth before other planets

7.Land plants before sea creatures

8.Starfish before earthworms

9.Trees before land animals

10.Man before death

11.Man before thorns and thistles

12.Man before TB pathogens and cancer

13.Birds before reptiles

14.Whales before land animals

15.Fruit trees before other plants*

16.Mammals (cattle) before “creeping things”*

17.Bats before land animals

18.Birds before dinosaurs

19.Flowering plants before insects

20.Plants before sun

21.Dolphins before dinosaurs

22.Pterosaurs before land reptiles

23.Flying insects before land insects

[b]Evolution[/b]

1.Sun before earth

2.Dry land before sea

3.Atmosphere before sea

4.Sun before light on earth

5.Stars before earth

6.Earth at same time as planets

7.Sea creatures before land plants

8.Earthworms before starfish

9.Land animals before trees

10.Death before man

11.Thorns and thistles before man

12.TB pathogens & cancer before man (dinosaurs had TB and cancer)

13.Reptiles before birds

14.Land mammals before whales

15.Simple plants before fruit trees

16.Insects before mammals

17.Land mammals before bats

18.Dinosaurs before birds

19.Insects before flowering plants

20.Sun before plants

21.Dinosaurs before dolphins

22.Land reptiles before pterosaurs

23.Land insects before flying insects
------------------------------------------------------

bubbaguy, you can see the contradictions, and you can research them to see that what I have written is true.

You are deceived, and will continue to be so until you acknowledge God as God, and repent from your wickedness. You are full of false doctrine and lies, repent, and cease to pervert the word of God, or God himself will judge you. I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to repent, and believe the truth.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/10/23 12:16Profile





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