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BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 All Men Everywhere

It amazes me, that with all the arguments of God's sovereignty, not one person can answer this question:

If God is completely sovereign in salvation, and if His word does not return to Him void, how can He command all men everywhere to repent, and then they do not repent as He commanded them to?

[b][color=FF0000]Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:[/color][/b]

Please do not post unless you can answer the question I asked. I know quite a bit about both sides doctrinally, I have studied TULIP and the opposing side, and I have yet to see anyone who believes in the complete sovereignty of God in salvation that can answer this question. Even James White does not answer it.


I wonder how many surprised calvinists there will be in heaven when they see Esau talking to Jesus.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/10/19 11:46Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re: All Men Everywhere

Quote:
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:



It's no different than God commanding all men not to commit adultery, or lie, or to love the Lord with all their heart, mind , soul, and strength.

The natural man cannot do these things,thus he must be born again or regenerated and receive justification by the faith produced in the new heart.

God sovereignly gives spiritual life to whom He will, when He will, and how He will. Even a skimming of Romans 9 makes that abundantly clear, unless one is attaching an agenda to it(i.e. nations and not individuals). The language of Romans 9 does not, and has never meant nations.

Consider the highlighted portion in light of what is surrounding it-
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 [b]And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,[/b]
Rom 9:24 [b]Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?[/b]

Is Paul speaking to nations and calling them "us", or is he referring to the people he is writing to?

Does Paul say anything there about a Jewish nation? or rather does it not say that the "vessels prepared before unto glory" were "called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles"?

Quote:
I wonder how many surprised calvinists there will be in heaven when they see Esau talking to Jesus.



Unless you have Scripture to show he'll be there, I don't think he will be. I'll be more surprised to see Finney there :-D


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/10/19 12:43Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
I'll be more surprised to see Finney there



Are you kidding here bro? He'll be there. Although in a way I agree...I might indeed be surprised to see him...because his seat will be so much better then mine. (paraphrasing Wesley...)

Praise God, even my own theology will finally be corrected and perfected in Glory.

Blessings,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2007/10/19 12:50Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Are you kidding here bro?



I wish I was, but any man who makes salvation dependent upon their own works is in danger of missing the point of Christ's perfect substitution for sinners.

It amazes me that a man can deny that Christ actually saved anyone, that the cross was simply to show God's anger towards sin, and that man must earn Heaven by his own deeds, and yet be highly praised by so many.

I at one time bought into this thinking, and understand to a point why it seems so wonderous, because it's ME doing, and I feel I contribute to MY salvation.

But if indeed God requires a perfect righteousness to allow entrance into Heaven(which He does), then it cannot be found in myself or my actions, for in them will be failure, and weakness, and nothing that would be worth God's approval (outside of Christ).

The Scriptures declare that God has placed us in Christ, and He has been made wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption to us(1 Corinthians 1:30), and also that God made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

Finney's theology has more in common with Judaism than with the teachings of the New Testament. For in his theology, there is really no need for a bleeding Saviour, because man can do it on his own. Man can keep the commandments, man can build a ladder to Heaven.

Brother I know that this is not a popular view to have here, but Scripture is truth, and it does not matter what man says. I have been through, and seen firsthand the horrid effects of this man's theology upon souls, and the consequences produced in the modern church, thus as one who loves the brethren and seeks their spiritual health, I warn, and confront, simply that folks would really evaluate what they are reading, and if it measures up with the Bible.

Blessings brother compton.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/10/19 13:27Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:

Consider the highlighted portion in light of what is surrounding it-
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 [b]And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,[/b]
Rom 9:24 [b]Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?[/b]

Is Paul speaking to nations and calling them "us", or is he referring to the people he is writing to?

Does Paul say anything there about a Jewish nation? or rather does it not say that the "vessels prepared before unto glory" were "called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles"?

Notice the word "even" in verse 24. That would mean it includes us individualy.

Why is it at the Potters House in Jer 18:2-6, which is the coi-text to Romans 9:21-23, the vessle was the nation of Israel?

The Potter did not mare the clay Himself, but the clay became marred in His hands.
The Potter(God) did all HE could do to keep the clay(Israel) from being marred. He sent Jeremiah(along with all the other prophets) and the clay(Israel) rebelled anyway.
Therefore, the Potter had to reform the clay into a new vessel.

Israel was warned to repent and they did not, that is the clay being marred.
God sent them to Babylon because of there repentance, this is the clay being reformed.

So, the answer to "Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, [b]Why hast thou made me thus?"[/b]
"Because you rebeled and did not yield to MY voice."
God never make vessels of dishonor just because HE wants an "ashtray, diaper pail, spittoon, garbage container, or whatnot" or just because HE wants to.
The vessels of dishonor are vessels of dishonor by there own fault.

 2007/10/19 14:37Profile
intrcssr83
Member



Joined: 2005/10/28
Posts: 246
Logan City, Queensland, Australia

 Re: All Men Everywhere

Quote:
by BenWilliams on 2007/10/20 2:46:21

It amazes me, that with all the arguments of God's sovereignty, not one person can answer this question:

If God is completely sovereign in salvation, and if His word does not return to Him void, how can He command all men everywhere to repent, and then they do not repent as He commanded them to?

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Please do not post unless you can answer the question I asked. I know quite a bit about both sides doctrinally, I have studied TULIP and the opposing side, and I have yet to see anyone who believes in the complete sovereignty of God in salvation that can answer this question. Even James White does not answer it.


I wonder how many surprised calvinists there will be in heaven when they see Esau talking to Jesus.



The underlying concept behind pelagian thinking and it's arminian offshoots is the concept that if God gave man an instruction, man must therefore be able to fulfill it on his own; "If God is just, if God is righteous and God is holy, and God commands of the creature to do something,certainly that creature must have the power within himself, the moral ability within himself, to perform it or God would never require it in the first place.”

To illustrate the fallacy of this thinking, I'd like to use the following analogy:
A man has an important appointment of which his attendance is compulsory. His only means of transport is to take the 9:00am train from his suburb into the metropolitan area. He arrives at the train station at 8:59am to find that the cost of the ticket will be $4.50 for a one-way journey. He looks into his wallet only to find it empty. The train pulls in and knowing nothing else to do, he gets on anyway.
Halfway into the journey, a policeman and a transport officer boards the train to inspect tickets. Eventually they get to the man who decided to board without a ticket. The police officer says that there is a $100 on the spot fine for evading fare. The passenger complains that he has no money to pay for it, to which the police officer says that failure to pay the fine within a specific timeframe will result in legal action by way of court.

Now let's think this scenario through. The fine required that the man paid $100 for transgressing the law. Now, does the policeman and the transport officer first inspect the man's wallet to see if he will actually be able to pay the fine then give the charge accordingly?
No.
The fine and the consequences of failing to pay it is a reflection not of the passengers' financial status, but rather the standard of civil law which those who are under it are required to abide by.

The same is true with God's instructions. They arte not a reflection of man's ability, but rather God's holiness. All men are sinful and thus "fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).

So to, when God gives an instruction only to find that man cannot fulfill it on his own, he is more than just to declare his wrath, because he is Holy and cannot let sin go unpunished.

Simple.


_________________
Benjamin Valentine

 2007/10/19 17:41Profile









 Re:

Quote:

roaringlamb wrote:

...any man who makes salvation dependent upon their own works is in danger of missing the point of Christ's perfect substitution for sinners.

Hi Bro Lamb

What I find hard to understand is how anyone can think that Armenianism (which I assume you are opposing) is, by definition, doing this? Why the insistance on this dichotomy, as if there are only two camps, Calvinists who believe in Grace, anmd Armenians who believe in works)

Quote:
It amazes me that a man can deny that Christ actually saved anyone, that the cross was simply to show God's anger towards sin,

The Cross was indeed showing God's anger over sin, but also much more than that. Redemption is a many-faceted jewel. Why limit yourself to only one facet of it? What of Christ's victory over Satan, His disarming of principalities and powers through the Cross (Colossians 2:15)? What of His becoming sin for us so that we might be made the righteousness of God (2Cor 5:21)?

And so on...

Quote:
I at one time bought into this thinking, and understand to a point why it seems so wonderous, because it's ME doing, and I feel I contribute to MY salvation.

But if indeed God requires a perfect righteousness to allow entrance into Heaven(which He does), then it cannot be found in myself or my actions, for in them will be failure, and weakness, and nothing that would be worth God's approval (outside of Christ).

The Scriptures declare that God has placed us in Christ, and He has been made wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption to us(1 Corinthians 1:30), and also that God made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

So you do believe that after all! You gave the impression above that you didn't, which was why I referred to it...

It seems we agree more than we thought :-P

Quote:
Finney's theology has more in common with Judaism than with the teachings of the New Testament. For in his theology, there is really no need for a bleeding Saviour, because man can do it on his own. Man can keep the commandments, man can build a ladder to Heaven.

Brother I know that this is not a popular view to have here, but Scripture is truth, and it does not matter what man says. I have been through, and seen firsthand the horrid effects of this man's theology upon souls, and the consequences produced in the modern church, thus as one who loves the brethren and seeks their spiritual health, I warn, and confront, simply that folks would really evaluate what they are reading, and if it measures up with the Bible.

I don't know much about Finney's theology, but do agree with you here. Even though I'm not a Calvinist!

Does that surprise you? ;-)

in Him

Jeannette

 2007/10/19 17:53
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
What I find hard to understand is how anyone can think that Armenianism (which I assume you are opposing) is, by definition, doing this? Why the insistance on this dichotomy, as if there are only two camps, Calvinists who believe in Grace, anmd Armenians who believe in works)



No sister, I do not care what nick name a person goes by. My issue is with the unbiblical teaching that justification is not by faith, grace and Christ alone.

I grieve to see people toiling under the false assumption that they must be maintaining a clean slate from their own works in order to get to Heaven. Or in simple terms, confusing sanctification and justification.

Arminians(most I have met) have a different view of grace which is more Roman Catholic than Biblical. It seems they view an initial giving of grace to help kick off salvation, but it is utterly dependent upon the individual to maintain his or her salvation by their works, and if they do not, then even though they at one time received grace, they will(according to Arminians) be lost.

Roman Catholics believe pretty close to the same thing. God infuses grace to start the process, but you must cooperate with it in order to be saved. But because God requires perfection for a person to get into Heaven they have at least invented purgatory to give some a false hope of being purified.

Quote:
Redemption is a many-faceted jewel. Why limit yourself to only one facet of it?



I will limit it in the same way that Paul did. I seek to know nothing but Christ and Him crucified, because that is the only hope I have in this world. If the work of Christ upon the cross did not actually pay for the sins of His people, then we are in deep trouble, because someone needs to pay them before we can get into Heaven. Along with this too is the fact that God must also have a perfect fulfillment of the Law in order to allow a soul into Heaven. Again if this facet of Christ's work is ignored, then we are in trouble, and must seek to keep the Law on our own.

Quote:
I don't know much about Finney's theology, but do agree with you here. Even though I'm not a Calvinist!



Not at all, because the Bible is where we draw our answers, and it never contradicts itself.

Blessings to you sister


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/10/19 18:24Profile









 Re: All Men Everywhere


BenWilliams said

Quote:
If God is completely sovereign in salvation, and if His word does not return to Him void, how can He command all men everywhere to repent, and then they do not repent as He commanded them to?

Hi Ben,

Interesting you should pick on the word 'commands', as I was thinking about that very statement in Acts 17 from a different perspective, namely, that there is [i]power[/i] in God's commands.

I don't agree that regeneration precedes repentance, (if that's what a true Calvinist believes), as that is not in line with the flow of Romans 1 into Romans 2, where the step of repentance most definitely comes between the wrath of God and being fit to inherit His kingdom, but there is another ancient place where God commands: the blessing, even [i]life for evermore[/i]. I believe that verb 'commands' has the same power in it, whether it is to repent, or to live. It is the word of God '[i][b]repent![/b][/i] which creates faith in the hearer at the same time as conviction of sin and hope of salvation. It is one of the wonders of His communication with us that He intends to deliver us into a relationship with Himself, if we do not resist His wooings.

I know this doesn't answer your question in the context which you hoped, but I wanted to offer that thought, that 'commands' is not so much an objective verb, but more a [i]calling forth from us[/i] the kind of response Lazarus made, when Jesus implicitly commanded life back into his body.

Remember, there were those who refused to look at the brass snake which Moses held up on the pole for them. They died. Only those who [u]would[/u] look, received healing and life.

 2007/10/21 9:20
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Benjamin from Aus. wrote:

Quote:
The underlying concept behind pelagian thinking and it's arminian offshoots is the concept that if God gave man an instruction, man must therefore be able to fulfill it on his own; "If God is just, if God is righteous and God is holy, and God commands of the creature to do something,certainly that creature must have the power within himself, the moral ability within himself, to perform it or God would never require it in the first place.”



So when God spoke to Cain...

Gen. 4:6 So the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”

Did He lie to Cain?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/10/22 2:25Profile





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