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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : MAN'S WILL vs. GOD'S SOVEREIGNITY

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Christian brothers and sisters do you not see I'm jealous for God to get all the glory!!!!!! You make this salvation out to be man's will, man's right, man's goodness, man's ability, and man's responisbility to keep it up. Oh, but you make sure to give God all the glory once you've earned your salvation... you sound like catholics..

 2007/10/18 14:23

Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4535



I think that one of the fallacies of Calvinism is a misunderstanding of the Eternal nature of God. God is in Eternity. This is not the past, present or future -- but a timeless, spiritual place where past, present and future is already known and understood. This is how John could literally "see" the events of the future and write them down into the Book of Revelation. He went through the door (Revelation 4) from time-bound Earth into eternal Heaven (where he even saw the Ark of the Covenant). As such, God knew -- before the creation of the world – those who would and would not be His. But we should remember that there is a difference between [i]predestination[/i] and [i]predetermination[/i].

Consider this: God already knows who will win next year's SuperBowl. He knows every play (good and bad), every score and even every hair upon the head of each football player. And he knows who the victors will be. To God, this is not past, present or even future knowledge. It is simply eternal knowledge (even if this anecote is somewhat unimportant in regards to eternal matters). Here on Earth, we don't even know [i]which teams[/i] will even make it to the SuperBowl. Since God already knows who will be the victors, should they just give up and stop playing? Or should they press forward and exert their free will?

Similarly, God knows who is eternally his. Yet He has still given us a FREE WILL here on this Earth. This was His plan: God created a world filled with wonders and delites. He created man with a free will with which he can choose to know, love, worship and serve the Lord -- or to be distracted by life and subsequently spend that love on the things of this world. We are not mere fleshly robots -- because "[i]forced love[/i]" is not "[i]real love[/i]." The love that comes from FREE WILL is more precious than anything.

So God knows us. He knows our past, our present and our eternal future. Since He knew this an eternity before He created this world, you can say that we are "predestined" to belong to Him. However, the "choice" is still up to us. The God of Eternity simply knows every free decision that you will ever make. He has allowed men to be confined to this law of free will, even if He already is aware of the decisions that we make.

Muslims believe that they have an invisible necklace around their neck which contains the very moment that they will die. They believe that this moment WILL and MUST come to pass. Even many Christians believe that God has a "time" for us. When someone dies, how many times do you hear someone say, "[i]It was his TIME to go[/i]?" I can almost guarantee, however, that our decisions have something to do with that time. If you stand in front of a bus going 80 miles per hour, I can almost guarantee that your time is up! If you are in a jet (full of fuel) and you decide to crash that jet at 800 MPH into a building 1000 feet in the air -- your FREE WILL has decided your time of death. But you know what? God already knew that you would make that decision. And he knew where you would spend eternity.

Is there such a thing as free will? Of course. You freely and willfully chose to read this post. You may even freely and willfully choose to respond. But you know what? God already knows what decision you will make.

There is NO WAY for us to have earned or won salvation. We can simply thank the sacrifice of Christ on the cross for giving us the opportunity. What will we do? He knows whether or not we will overcome until the end (Revelation 2 and 3) and be saved – even if we haven’t made that decision, overcome this world, been “faithful unto death” or even finished the race yet. Me? I freely choose to finish this race.



 2007/10/18 14:32Profile


He created man with a free will with which he can choose to know, love, worship and serve the Lord -- or to be distracted by life and subsequently spend that love on the things of this world. We are not mere fleshly robots -- because "forced love" is not "real love." The love that comes from FREE WILL is more precious than anything.

So your saying it would be possible that no man would choose God and by excerising his free will would stump God's hopes that somebody, anybody would love Him.

 2007/10/18 15:32

Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


Anonymous wrote:
Salvaition is a choice, you make it out not to be.

Salvation is a choice by who

the one who needs it.
who initiates it

Gaod has initiated it on the cross. one must take the otonement as his own. Just as the children of Israel had each to aply the blood on their own doors before the "creeping death" came, so one must aply HIS blood to himself.
who sustains it

It takes two to tango. In a relationsip, both parties must do their part.
who gives it?

One needs to decide to take it?

Man has nothing to do with His salvation except contributing sin.
That is rediculous,
That is like saying a wife has nothing to do with her mariage accept devorce.

To see the kingdom of God you must be born again. Can you give birth to yourself? Can you give yourself sight? Can you raise yourself from the dead? My friend you must ask yourself who your giving the glory to in this salvation....

I give God more glory than one thinks.
I am saying that God's glory is so evident that any one can see it.
You say that God's glory is not so evident that HE must make people to see it.
If no one would love God by their own volitional choice, HE must not be so great as HE claims.

One the contrary, If man by his free will of his own volition can recognise HIS glory, then, it is evidently awsome!

 2007/10/18 15:43Profile

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