| Poster | Thread | roaringlamb
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California
| | Re: | | Quote:
Also, do you think sin will not be an option in heaven? Consider - do we lose our free-will? Lucifer was in Heaven when he sinned.
No, I believe that we must continue to choose not to sin even once we get to heaven. To say otherwise is to say that we lose our freewill!
Brother are you saying that it is our willing not to sin that gets us into and keeps us in Heaven? I really hope not.
The Bible makes it clear that our soul will go to Heaven, and than our bodies shall be changed and made incorruptible. Or in other words glorified, and we shall not be able to sin. Here the body is corruptible, and will go from whence it came.
Your view has no need of Christ if you can by your own will get and keep yourself in Heaven. If this is your view, please explain what role Christ has in salvation for you?
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patrick heaviside
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|  2007/9/16 22:04 | Profile | Nile
Member
Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC
| | Re: | | Quote:
Brother are you saying that it is our willing not to sin that gets us into and keeps us in Heaven? I really hope not.
Willing not to sin is a condition of getting into heaven. Christ's death is the ground of getting into heaven.
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The Bible makes it clear that our soul will go to Heaven, and than our bodies shall be changed and made incorruptible. Or in other words glorified, and we shall not be able to sin. Here the body is corruptible, and will go from whence it came.
Being in heaven and having an incorruptible body does not mean you lose free-will. Lucifer sinned. Adam sinned.
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Your view has no need of Christ if you can by your own will get and keep yourself in Heaven. If this is your view, please explain what role Christ has in salvation for you?
I'm sorry, but I don't see how this follows. We go to heaven of own will only in that we must "will" to want to go there. We cannot go to heaven merely because we will to though!
Christ died that we me reconciled to God; that our sin would be atoned for.
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Matthew Miskiewicz
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| | 2007/9/16 22:20 | Profile | roaringlamb
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California
| | Re: | | Quote:
Willing not to sin is a condition of getting into heaven. Christ's death is the ground of getting into heaven.
But ultimately it is our decision that sways the vote? So is Christ's death the start, and we must maintain or lose our salvation?
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Being in heaven and having an incorruptible body does not mean you lose free-will. Lucifer sinned. Adam sinned.
Satan still went to Heaven in Job, and appears in Revelation as the one who accuses the brethren.
Adam was in the garden of Eden when he sinned not Heaven.
Lastly, your view is contrary to Scripture, for Jesus said we would be like the angels, and since we never read of any other angels sinning, it is safe to say we shall be without sin, and unable to sin. Especially since the Bible says that [b]when we see Him, we shall be like Him.[/b]
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We go to heaven of own will only in that we must "will" to want to go there. We cannot go to heaven merely because we will to though!
Sorry brother but you lost me here. There are lots of people who want to go to Heaven, even those who cast out demons, and did great works in Jesus' name, but they hear, "depart from me for I never knew you". So willing is not the ticket in.
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patrick heaviside
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| | 2007/9/16 22:49 | Profile | Nile
Member
Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC
| | Re: | | Quote:
But ultimately it is our decision that sways the vote? So is Christ's death the start, and we must maintain or lose our salvation?
Yes, ultimately the individual is responsible for their salvation.
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Lastly, your view is contrary to Scripture, for Jesus said we would be like the angels, and since we never read of any other angels sinning, it is safe to say we shall be without sin, and unable to sin.
What about Satan and the 1/3 of the angels that followed him?
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Especially since the Bible says that when we see Him, we shall be like Him.
Does not God have the capabilities to do wrong (power, circumstances, ect.), but chooses not to?
There can be no good if evil is not possible.
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Matthew Miskiewicz
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| | 2007/9/16 23:07 | Profile | roaringlamb
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California
| | Re: | | Quote:
Yes, ultimately the individual is responsible for their salvation.
Then it is a wonder that any are in Heaven at all. To think I thought Christ alone gained entrance for His people because He died for their sins.
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What about Satan and the 1/3 of the angels that followed him?
After that, there is no mention of any others falling.
Brother if the Scriptures declare that when we see Christ, we shall be like Him, that means pure, sinless, and holy. The view you are putting forth makes it seem that this verse means Christ has sin in His being. Very dangerous.
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patrick heaviside
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| | 2007/9/16 23:13 | Profile | Nile
Member
Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC
| | Re: | | Quote:
Then it is a wonder that any are in Heaven at all. To think I thought Christ alone gained entrance for His people because He died for their sins.
There is a difference between a Condition and a Ground. God has made way for our forgiveness with the death of Christ. That is the grounds of our forgiveness. God has also said what we must do to be forgiven. That is the condition of forgiveness.
God extends the grounds of salvation to everyone - it is up to the individual to fulfill the condition and obtain salvation.
"Except ye repent, ye shall likewise perish."
It is up to each man to repent or not.
It is his decision.
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After that, there is no mention of any others falling.
Okay...but they fell before. While they were in heaven. In perfect bodies.
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Brother if the Scriptures declare that when we see Christ, we shall be like Him, that means pure, sinless, and holy. The view you are putting forth makes it seem that this verse means Christ has sin in His being. Very dangerous.
Christ has no sin in His being and neither do we.
Sin is a choice, not a disease or hereditary trait.
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Matthew Miskiewicz
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| | 2007/9/16 23:28 | Profile |
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