Poster | Thread | LiveforGod Member
Joined: 2007/4/17 Posts: 299
| Re: | | Amen Brother Logic.
I think you just used Logic. :-) _________________ Samuel
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| 2007/9/14 19:30 | Profile | roaringlamb Member
Joined: 2003/6/11 Posts: 1519 Santa Cruz California
| Re: | | Quote:
Getting a new heart(regeneration, born again) is salvation. Therefore, you are saying that one needs to be saved in order to repent.
No, I am saying the new birth produces repentance, faith, justification, and sanctification. These are fruits of the new birth. Not causes of it.
There is no ability to truly do these things without the new birth. Natural man will not because he sees no need to.
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God saves people by convicting them of their sin so they will repent to be saved. The conviction gives one a desire for Christ to save from the sin being convicted of.
Wait, I thought man saved himself by his own choice to be saved. You mean God must first do something in order for men to react? ;-)
The conviction comes from the new birth, and thus will produce repentance. _________________ patrick heaviside
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| 2007/9/14 19:42 | Profile | Logic Member
Joined: 2005/7/17 Posts: 1791
| Re: What I consider sound doctrine | | Quote:
Lazarus1719 wrote:
- God's commandments are not impossible and He expects us to keep them
Amen! For the sinner, God's commandments are only posible when they come to christ so that the law may be fulfilled in them as they walk in accord with spirit.(Rom 8:4)
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Sinless Perfection is attainable in this life
I'd have to disagree, only by personal experiance.
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A person must stop sinning in this life or they will not go to Heaven
must stop practising sin in this life, or habitual sin.
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Entire sanctification is necessary before justification can occur. A person must make a conscious choice to surrender everything to Jesus (all sin included) before they can be saved.
I might not understand your thinking on this, but, I would say for this to be true: Faith sanctifies one entirly for the justification. Because Abraham believed and was counted to his as justification(righteousness).
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Conversion/Regeneration is a personal decision to deny yourself, pick up your cross, and follow Jesus; a decision to repent and believe the gospel
Amen Conversion/Regeneration are one and the same. I hate the idea that one needs regenerated in order to have faith to be saved.
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- Sin is not a hereditary disease but a voluntary decision of the will, a wrong use of freewill
- Sin is a rebellious use of freewill against the Sovereign plan of God
- Babies are born innocent and sinless and voluntarily choose to corrupt themselves at the age of accountability
- Sinners are sinners by choice not birth
Amen to all 4
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The future is partly open and partly settled and God knows it as such
Need to study "Open Theology" more
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- The foreknowledge of God consists in God foreknowing all certainties as certain and all possibilities as possible
- Jesus Christ died for everyone, his blood was a sin offering which makes it possible for God to forgive everyone conditionally
- Salvation is conditional upon repentance and faith
Amen to all 3
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- Salvation can be lost by one act of rebellion
Thank God this is not true. Rebellion is sin. [b]1John 2:1[/b] [color=990000]My little children, these things write I unto you, that you sin not. And if any man sin[/color](rebels)[color=990000], we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:[/color]
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- The Church was wrong for condemning Pelagius and agreeing with Augustine
To bad palagius was called a heritic, he had some common sence theology. He was, however, way off on alot of things. |
| 2007/9/14 19:43 | Profile | roaringlamb Member
Joined: 2003/6/11 Posts: 1519 Santa Cruz California
| Re: | | Quote:
For the sinner, God's commandments are only posible when they come to christ so that the law may be fulfilled in them as they walk in accord with spirit.(Rom 8:4)
Look at the verse before it, and tell me who did what- Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. Rom 8:3 For [b]what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:[/b]
Do you see that Christ fulfilled the Law on our behalf? and that is we if we believe we are free from sin and death? These are objective truths, they are true whether we feel it to be true or not. That is why the righteousness of the Law shall be worked out through us, that is the process of being conformed to the image of Christ is it not?
_________________ patrick heaviside
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| 2007/9/14 19:53 | Profile | Logic Member
Joined: 2005/7/17 Posts: 1791
| Re: | | Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:Quote:
Getting a new heart(regeneration, born again) is salvation. Therefore, you are saying that one needs to be saved in order to repent.
No, I am saying the new birth produces repentance, faith, justification, and sanctification. These are fruits of the new birth. Not causes of it.
Why do you say that salvation produces repentance, faith, justification, and sanctification?
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roaringlamb wrote: There is no ability to truly do these things without the new birth. Natural man will not because he sees no need to.
The natural man must repent when convicted of the truth of sin because he is able. If he wasn't able, he would be innocent for not repenting, because there is not law against inability.
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roaringlamb wrote:Quote:
God saves people by convicting them of their sin so they will repent to be saved. The conviction gives one a desire for Christ to save from the sin being convicted of.
Wait, I thought man saved himself by his own choice to be saved. You mean God must first do something in order for men to react?
Huh? all mankind has a conscience. All mankind may be convicted of the truth or be effected by the truth. All mankind may accept truth and yield to truth. Why is the truth that convicts of sin any diferent?
One does not need a "new birth" in order to let truth efect him. Why would one need to be saved(new birth) to be convicted of sin(the truth)? you have it backward. One needs to be convicted of the truth(sin) to have the new birth.
Furthemore, it is not man saving himself! It is man recognizing that he needs saved and acting upon the fact. Man is saved by faith in HIS Blood. Mans choice to be saved is choosing to act upon the truth of what Jesus did and who he is.
Say Jesus is a boat. Man must choose to get in the boat. Man must choose to aply HIS blood just as the children of Israel had to choose to put the blood on their doorposts. |
| 2007/9/14 20:03 | Profile |
| Re: | | Quote:
The natural man must repent when convicted of the truth of sin because he is able. If he wasn't able, he would be innocent for not repenting, because there is not law against inability.
Jesus rebuked entire cities for not repenting! Jesus rebuked people for being faithless!
Why did Jesus rebuke them for being impenitent and being faithless? Because it is their choice to repent and believe and it's their choice to remain impenitent and faithless! |
| 2007/9/14 20:20 | | roaringlamb Member
Joined: 2003/6/11 Posts: 1519 Santa Cruz California
| Re: | | Brother logic,
The term "saved" is an invented term for our day I suppose, and if I had to be technical I was saved before the foundation of the world(Eph 1:4,5), or even 2000 years ago when Christ bore my sins on Calvary.
So regeneration is not equal to salvation, but is a means of applying it.
You and I can go round and round about this, but I fear neither will convince the other. I once was on your side, I know the arguments, and am amazed that you, Jesse, and others think that I just fell off the turnip truck or something.
Brother two years ago I would have been Amening every word both you and Jesse have said, no longer for now I am convinced otherwise. And unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason here is where I will stand, so help me God by His grace through Christ.
But I never want you or Jesse to feel that I do not value you as brothers, and even though we have shared harsh words at times, it is good to have passion about what we believe else it would be nothing more than a hobby.
Blessings to you brother. _________________ patrick heaviside
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| 2007/9/14 20:24 | Profile | Nile Member
Joined: 2007/3/28 Posts: 403 Raleigh, NC
| Re: | | Quote:
The term "saved" is an invented term for our day I suppose, and if I had to be technical I was saved before the foundation of the world(Eph 1:4,5), or even 2000 years ago when Christ bore my sins on Calvary.
roaringlamb, I am sure others are just as flabergasted as I am at this.
Being "saved" is not an invented term for our day! Just think: how many times is the word "saved" used in the New Testament?
Brother, when I say salvation, it is NOT what you mean as salvation.
We have different salvations.
My salvation is a salvation from sinning and from the wrath of God.
Your salvation is a salvation from the wrath of God. That's only half of salvation!
("half" - I am being simplistic for times sake.) _________________ Matthew Miskiewicz
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| 2007/9/14 20:45 | Profile | Nile Member
Joined: 2007/3/28 Posts: 403 Raleigh, NC
| Re: | | Quote:
So regeneration is not equal to salvation, but is a means of applying it.
Your monergism taints everything. :-( (And you would say my synergism taints everything.)
That's what we should discuss. Monergism and Synergism. Maybe I'll make a newthread for it sometime. _________________ Matthew Miskiewicz
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| 2007/9/14 20:49 | Profile |
| Re: | | Roaringlamb,
You bring up another reason why I reject your kind of atonement theory. Because according to it, you have been saved since the foundation of the world, or for the past 2000 years.
So you would not say that you were under the wrath of God in your life?
You would not say that you were an enemy of God before you were converted?
Because Christ died for you even before you were converted, and therefore you are saying that you were saved before you were even converted?
That is what the commercial transaction view of the atonement teaches! That is what the satisfaction to retributive justice theory teaches! That the elect for whom Christ died were truly saved from God's wrath even before they were converted, because Christ satisfied the wrath of God for them before they were even born. |
| 2007/9/14 21:00 | |
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