| Poster | Thread | hulsey
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| | Justification | | In [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19546&forum=35]another thread[/url] Patrick (roaringlamb) said the following:
Quote:
Justification is a one time legal declaration at the point of faith which is given by the Father. The result of this declaration can never be annulled as even Christ said, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." John 6:39
While I agree that Justification includes the legal declaration at the point of faith in Christ, I am beginning to wonder if that's the end of it. This is something I'm currently wrestling with. We all agree that it is faith alone that saves us, but the requirement of the presence of works is still something of a controversy that is not denied by the strongest argument for "faith alone" (The doctrine of "faith alone" is not something I'm seeking to deny, but wanting to properly understand.)
I take the liberty of assuming that all of us agree that something is required of us in that God expects a fruit of righteousness in those who believe. We all wonder about the profession of faith of the one whose life professes something different. And countless times the Word declares that all will stand before Christ and give an account of their deeds (works) done in the body.
If what was quoted is true then would not the Jew also be justified who, having no works, merely possessed the Law? Would one who was a hearer and not a doer of the Law be justified? And what would we say of God who is justifying the one who possesses the Law merely on the requirement of possession and yet condemning a Gentile whose life is much more exemplary yet only doesn't possess the Law? Wouldn't God be guilty of showing partiality?(Rom.2) And what of the fruitless Christian who looks more like the world than the world yet makes the claim of possessing Christ?
To make clear, I am in no way insinuating that roaringlamb is espousing some form of antinomianism. These are just some questions I've been asking myself as I've been studying Romans.
Right now the way I see justification is that rl is correct in that justification is by grace through faith alone on the work of Christ alone. But I guess the best way to put it is that I differ in the definition of this one time declaration upon faith in Christ in that it has a life long effect on the one believing. To explain, my justification is much more than what happened 17 yrs ago when I surrendered to Christ, but everything else in the life I've lived since then has been the fruit of that surrender, and that is apart of Justification.
I am open to correction and clarification on this and I am curious as to everyone's thoughts on this matter. Thanks.
Blessings,
Jeremy Hulsey
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Jeremy Hulsey
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|  2007/9/14 16:56 | Profile | thomasm
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Lloydminster, Alberta, Canada
| | Re: Justification | | The blood of Jesus is our justification, when we hear the word and chose to obey, by the faith that comes from God through the Holy Spirit, through the Gospel. We hear the gospel on the outside, through a preacher or the writen word, and the spirit of God bears record in our spirit, that this is true. All from God, but at that moment we can chose to turn from every thing we thought we knew onto Christ. [Thus repent].
Santification is the fact that we died with Christ and were raised up a new creature in Him. Most believers know this, as a doctrine, but Paul said: " Reckon yourselves dead.." The true death of self comes, when we believe the doctrine that we know, and claim it as done in Christ. The mistake most believers make is trying to crucify them selves, rather than acept what God grace through Jesus, has all ready done. One is self effert which isn't rest at all but a constant struggle to try to measure up, when we stop our own works and rest in what Christ has done the struggle with the sinful nature dies and the nature of God is reveiled in us .
all for now. Love in Christ tom
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Tom weighill
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| | 2007/10/21 19:28 | Profile | roaringlamb
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Santa Cruz California
| | Re: Justification | | Consider the following Scriptures-
Romans 5:1 Therefore [b]being[/b] justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
The verb is in the aorist passive tense indicating something that has happened [b]to[/b] us and has ongoing effects.
It is does not indicate anything being done [b]by[/b] us to be justified.
Romans 5:9 Much more then, [b]being now[/b] justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
It is the same here.
We are declared righteous because of Christ, and His work being imputed to us.
We must ask, if God indeed requires a perfect righteousness in order to allow entrance to Heaven, then where does this come from?
Is it from my works? And if so, then how could I ever have any assurance of my right standing with God?
Is it from the work of Another, and is this not grace in its truest sense?
This is why if one denies the imputation of Adam's sin to all of mankind, or says that we only follow him by imitation, but not because of imputation, it is impossible for that person to say a man may have Christ's righteousness imputed to him, and rather he must imitate Christ to be saved.
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patrick heaviside
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| | 2007/10/21 20:40 | Profile | roaringlamb
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| | Re: | | Brother tom perhaps this is what you are getting at, but justification is a one time act of God, and sanctification is a process that will not be complete until glorification.
We will never be perfect here as there was only One who was perfect, and we have been placed into Him by faith alone.
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patrick heaviside
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| | 2007/10/21 20:43 | Profile | roaringlamb
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| | Re: Justification | | Quote:
If what was quoted is true then would not the Jew also be justified who, having no works, merely possessed the Law? Would one who was a hearer and not a doer of the Law be justified? And what would we say of God who is justifying the one who possesses the Law merely on the requirement of possession and yet condemning a Gentile whose life is much more exemplary yet only doesn't possess the Law? Wouldn't God be guilty of showing partiality?(Rom.2) And what of the fruitless Christian who looks more like the world than the world yet makes the claim of possessing Christ?
The law was never meant as a means of justification brother and that is why it can demand yet cannot enable. Consider these verses-
Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Romans 3:20 [b]Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. [/b]
Romans 3:21 But now [b]the righteousness of God without the law[/b] is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
What is this righteousness?
Romans 3:22 Even [b]the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:[/b] for there is no difference:
Now as for the reference to Romans 2, I believe you were mentioning this verse-
Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Yet we know that by the deeds of the Law no flesh can be justified before God, so this must be written to show the impossibility of keeping the Law. For consider Paul's words to the Galatians-
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, [b]Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[/b]
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, [b]The just shall live by faith.[/b]
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
The law only frustrates the self righteous, or acts as a platform in which they believe because of their works, God must accept them. It is completely contrary to the Gospel which speaks of what has been done as an objective act by Another, and has been put to my account.
As for a Christian person living less righteously than a non-Christian, sadly it happens often. For Satan seeks to buffet and bring despair upon those children of God so he may blacken the name of God.
Of course he need not cause his children to look evil before the world, for they are already his, thus he makes them look wondrous that accusation may be raised against the Lord and His Christ.
In all of this though the truth of Christ crucifixion remains, and the process of sanctification is going on in each of God's children, thus, they shall be changed. Remember the Corinthian church and the problems there. Paul calls them "carnal", but never "lost". Even the incestuous man is to be turned over to satan that his flesh may be done in, but not his soul.
A mustard seed of faith justifies, and though it looks unfruitful to us, it is not our job to cast doubt upon those who struggle with their sin, for an unbeliever has no struggle with his sin. They may be concerned about their "moral" problem, but they are not concerned about their offence to God.
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patrick heaviside
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| | 2007/10/21 22:14 | Profile | hmmhmm
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| | Re: | | here is an excellent teaching on the subject [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=2164&commentView=itemComments]Justification by Ron Bailey[/url]
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CHRISTIAN
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| | 2007/10/22 1:38 | Profile | Logic
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| | Re: | | Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Is it from my works? And if so, then how could I ever have any assurance of my right standing with God?
If those works are don't by faith, there is all the assurance you need.
[b]1John 3:19-21[/b] [color=990000]And by [b]this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him[/b].
[b]:20[/b] For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.
[b]:21[/b] Beloved, if our heart condemns us not, then have we confidence toward God.[/color]
Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
This is why if one denies the imputation of Adam's sin to all of mankind, or says that we only follow him by imitation, but not because of imputation, it is impossible for that person to say a man may have Christ's righteousness imputed to him, and rather he must imitate Christ to be saved.
There is no relation to beliveing in the imputation of Adam's sin and the imputation of righteousness; accept that one needs to do saome thing to have sin charged to your account(that is to sin), so it is that one needs to do saome thing to have righteousness charged to your account (that is trusting with belief).
[b]Rom 4:3[/b] [b][color=990000]For what says the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.[/color]
Abraham did something to have righteousness counted to him.(see also Jamess 2:21-22) |
| | 2007/10/22 12:09 | Profile | roaringlamb
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| | Re: | | Quote:
so it is that one needs to do saome thing to have righteousness charged to your account (that is trusting with belief).
Yes, but what are we to believe?
Is it not the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Which is based upon His sacrifice for sinners. Thus if the sin of Adam is only by "imitation", then a man can "imitate" Christ and be saved, and there is no need for a bloody death upon the cross, because man can do it himself.
If however, we understand that we sin because that is what we are by birth because of the imputation of Adam's sin to all men, we then see a need for an imputation of a new life, and of righteousness that cannot come from man or his works. Thus the cross becomes the central theme as it is here that God meets with man, and redeems man.
Abraham believed that God was able to perform what He had promised, and that promise was to bring forth the Messiah. Abraham was also declared righteous, or justified before the Law was even written, and before he was circumcised which removes any kind of fleshly work to obtain this righteousness.
Abraham's faith was based upon God's revelation to him, as it is with all who believe in Christ.
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patrick heaviside
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| | 2007/10/22 12:20 | Profile | Nile
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| | Re: Justification | | Quote:
Justification is a one time legal declaration at the point of faith which is given by the Father. The result of this declaration can never be annulled as even Christ said, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." John 6:39
I don't think John 6:39 isn't talking about justification.
Look:
John 18:8
that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none.
The scripture was already fulfilled. It was about none of the disciples being killed.
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Matthew Miskiewicz
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| | 2007/10/22 12:32 | Profile | Logic
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| | Re: | | Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Thus if the sin of Adam is only by "imitation", then a man can "imitate" Christ and be saved,
I'm sorry, I don't get that logic, why is it as you say? |
| | 2007/10/22 13:32 | Profile |
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