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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : WHO is the CAUSE of sin and WHAT is the SOURCE of sin?

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roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
People do not have a "sin nature" just as an apple tree does not have an apple nature.
All sin is fruit from what man is rooted in, which is of eather three things. Rooted in Christ, the world or self.



So the fruit comes from the root right. Now if the root is incapable of producing good fruit how can it then on its own suddenly produce good fruit unless there is a change in the root.

For example, a dog is a dog and will act like a dog unless his nature is changed into that of a cat. Then it will act differently as there is a new nature.

An unrepentant sinner will act and enjoy sin until there is a new nature born in them, and since sin is never entirely wiped out this side of Heaven, there will be elements of the old nature remaining, and driving us straight back to Christ for his saving day in and day out. This is the difference between saved and unsaved, one can abide with no problem in sin, while the other flees to Christ every time sin arises.

Luther perhaps had the best phrase for this-
"simul iustus et peccator" or in English, "at once justified and sinner".

I know that this flies in the face of most that post here, but if we would be honest with ourselves and put down the fronts that we live "victorious lives", we could possibly see true revival, and know Christ and His saving work more completely. The Gospel is not something that I do or that requires my help to be effectual, it happens outside of me and is brought into me by the Holy Spirit through God's grace.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/9/13 12:29Profile
myfirstLove
Member



Joined: 2005/11/26
Posts: 496


 Re:

Quote:
I know that this flies in the face of most that post here, but if we would be honest with ourselves and put down the fronts that we live "victorious lives", we could possibly see true revival, and know Christ and His saving work more completely.



I surely don't agree with Jesse, but the statement you made here is a faithless one and a cause why we do not have revival. If we would have faith and believe all the promises we have in Christ we would live a victorious life glorifying our Father, going from glory to glory.

Read 2 Peter 1:1-10

When Paul spoke of the promises of God (we are dead, new creation,freed from sin,EVERY spiritual blessings), he spoke them past tense. We already obtained it! The problem why so many are not living victorious life is that many do not believe, have faith in the cross and resurrection of Christ!

This is where I disagree with the calvinist, but everything else I pretty much agree.


_________________
Lisa

 2007/9/13 13:05Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Perhaps I should sate more clearly what I meant.

Too many people think that everyone else is living this wondrous glory filled life and that they are the only ones who are defeated. Thus driving a wedge of despair into our gatherings, and a feeling of isolation that does not need to be there.

The truth is, every single Christian is always one thought away from sin, and if not for the prefect intercession of Christ on our behalf we should be forever cast away.

It is this proud lie that creates an environment of hypocrisy, and this must be done away with before God can do a work, because this "self righteousness" from our perceived holiness is an affront to the person and work of Christ, and God's working is rooted and grounded in the person of Christ. The Holy Spirit bears witness to Christ, not self.

If we could do it ourselves, we would not need Christ, and if there was any other way, He would not have had to die.

Yes Paul wrote of the glorious state of believers in Christ, yet notice it is "in Christ" that we have these blessings, not "in self".

Flesh cannot defeat flesh. There are three persons in the Scriptures that give life to whom they will, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. I do not believe we ever hear of man "quickening" or "giving life" to himself.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/9/13 13:28Profile
myfirstLove
Member



Joined: 2005/11/26
Posts: 496


 Re:

Understanding you now. That I agree with very much!

Quote:
If we could do it ourselves, we would not need Christ, and if there was any other way, He would not have had to die.



Quote:
Yes Paul wrote of the glorious state of believers in Christ, yet notice it is "in Christ" that we have these blessings, not "in self".



Quote:
Flesh cannot defeat flesh. There are three persons in the Scriptures that give life to whom they will, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. I do not believe we ever hear of man "quickening" or "giving life" to himself.



Amen.


_________________
Lisa

 2007/9/13 14:09Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
People do not have a "sin nature" just as an apple tree does not have an apple nature.
All sin is fruit from what man is rooted in, which is of eather three things. Rooted in Christ, the world or self.

So the fruit comes from the root right. Now if the root is incapable of producing good fruit how can it then on its own suddenly produce good fruit unless there is a change in the root.

Exactly.
Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
An unrepentant sinner will act and enjoy sin until there is a [b]new nature[/b] born in them...

Not "new nature" but new motive.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
and since sin is never entirely wiped out this side of Heaven, there will be elements of the old nature remaining, and driving us straight back to Christ for his saving day in and day out.


We are not talking about mere acts of sin, but [b]serving sin[/b] as a slave.
Sin is what one is bound to if not grafted into Christ, just as the christian is bound to righteousness as a slave.
[b]Rom 6:18[/b] Being then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness.[/color]

Furtheremore, it is not the "elements of the old nature remaining" but the flesh that we have.

We are born soulish(fleshly). Our souls rule our physical bodies. When we become born again, we become spiritually alive to Christ and no longer soulish, our root has changed. Our will, then, need to be the servant to our spirits to rule our flesh in a Godly manner. It is the flesh that we battle everyday, who will rule? Will it be our soulish passion to walk after the flesh, or will it be our spirit, to life in Christ Jesus which has made me free from the law of sin and death?
[b]Romans 8:4[/b] [color=990000]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.[/color]

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Luther perhaps had the best phrase for this-
"simul iustus et peccator" or in English, "at once justified and sinner".

I must object!
Once justied, we are saints, no longer sinners.
There is no such thing as a sinful saint.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
I know that this flies in the face of most that post here, but if we would be honest with ourselves and put down the fronts that we live "victorious lives", we could possibly see true revival, and know Christ and His saving work more completely.

What is the saving work of Christ if we are still sinners?
We are currently saved from our sins and no longer sinners(Matthew 1:21).

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
The Gospel is not something that I do or that requires my help to be effectual, it happens outside of me and is brought into me by the Holy Spirit through God's grace.

Wrong again;
[b]Hebrews 4:11[/b] [color=990000]Let us [b]labor[/b] therefore [b]to enter into that rest[/b], lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.[/color]

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
The truth is, every single Christian is always one thought away from sin,

That is a lie.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
It is this proud lie that creates an environment of hypocrisy, and this must be done away with before God can do a work, because this "self righteousness" from our perceived holiness is an affront to the person and work of Christ, and [b]God's working is rooted and grounded in the person of Christ[/b]. The Holy Spirit bears witness to Christ, [b]not self[/b].

Are you talking about christian's "self righteousness" & "perceived holiness"?
What Christian is "rooted in self"?
Christains must take effort in their walk with Christ, here is just one example:
[b]Jamess 4:7[/b] [color=990000]Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.[/color]
Not to mention the Hebrews 4:11 verse.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
If we could do it ourselves, we would not need Christ, and if there was any other way, He would not have had to die.

I don't know where you get your preseption of christians, but all true followers of Christ know that can not do it thier selves, however, we do have our own part to a relationship with Christ:
[b]Lev 20:7[/b] [color=990000]Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be you holy: for I am the LORD your God.[/color]
[b]Joshua 3:5[/b] [color=990000]And Joshua said unto the people, Sanctify yourselves: for tomorrow the LORD will do wonders among you.[/color]
[b]Col 3:12[/b] [color=990000]Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, compassion, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;[/color]

 2007/9/13 14:43Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

QUOTE, WITH ADDED QUESTIONS:

""""Therefore, in whatever way that judgment cam upon all men, so also justification came upon all men.

BECAUSE ADAM BELIEVED A LIE.

If Justification is not forced upon all men, then is condemnation not forced upon all men.

IN WHOM DO YOU BELIEVE?

However, both have come upon all men: condemnation through Adam, and justification through Jesus.

IN WHOM DO YOU BELIEVE?

It is the individuals choices that determine whether they are condemned or justified.

IN WHOM DO YOU BELIEVE?

If you live in sin, which all men will choose to do starting with Adam, you will be condemned.
If you live in God, which some men will choose to do by Jesus,you will be justified."""""

IN WHOM DO YOU BELIEVE?




This is the nature of man. This is the nature of Christ. This is the nature of Satan.

IN WHOM DO YOU BELIEVE?

Man does not have his own nature. He either has the nature of Satan his father or He has the Nature of God his Father.

What caused the nature of Adam's soul to change to sin. He believed the lie, of Satan. What causes regeneration? He believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the truth of God, come to kill the old nature and give new life to the one that believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Satan nature unto a created being of Satan nature, sin nature. God nature by The Christ in you, unto a born creature of God, a new creation in Christ Jesus, in whom we believed. Man does not have his own nature, he chose his own nature by believing. Either in Satan or in Christ. Two natures only, Satan unto sin or Christ unto righteousness.

What makes us sinners? We believe the Liar. What makes us righteous unto the Holiness of God? We believe the Truth, That Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and are Born of God from above again unto what God intended us to be before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

In whom you believe is in whom you will serve.
If you don't believe in Christ, then in whom are you birthed? Physically, fleshly a created being believing in a created being, Satan.
Or Heavenly, spiritually created in Christ Jesus by being rebirthed into the kingdom of Christ our Lord, Savior, Seed, and God.

In Christ a new creature by new birth: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/9/13 15:13Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Wrong again;
Hebrews 4:11 Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.



But is not the rest brought by Christ, and also given once we believe?
Hebrews 4:3 [b]For we which have believed do enter into rest[/b], as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

The Epistle to the Hebrews must always be read in light of the fact that these wanted to go back from the sufficiency of Christ, and His work for them as Prophet, Priest, and King.

Specifically the office of Christ as our High Priest that intercedes for us, and offers Himself in our place as the high priest of the OT.

Prior to your verse we read this-
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

These works were those of self justification through the Law was it not? and the labour Paul encourages is that of denying self, and rejoicing in the work of Christ.

Then he finishes off the chapter with these words of great comfort-
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Quote:
That is a lie.



Well brother I think you do not understand the depth of your sin.

And since you are a male, you are not any different than any other male( I don't think I need to go into detail), thus you are prone to sinful thoughts, and ideas just like your brothers who you esteem as weak, or wrong.

Quote:
Are you talking about christian's "self righteousness" & "perceived holiness"?
What Christian is "rooted in self"?



What I am talking about is this idea that Christianity is a religion of glory and not of a cross. Too many are deceived in thinking that glory comes here and now, while the Bible speaks of a cross we endure by God's grace here and now. Any doubts about this should be taken to the book of Psalms, and you will see a huge difference.

Glory is the end, the cross is the way. If we could be more approachable and open with each other, oh what a blessing. Rather though, too many put on the "I'm ok, you're ok" mask" and those who do not have it on feel inadequate and less spiritual.

Quote:
I don't know where you get your preseption of christians, but all true followers of Christ know that can not do it thier selves, however, we do have our own part to a relationship with Christ:



But my problem is that you and others say that man can do it, and then when pressed, you backtrack and say, "of course we really can't do it on our own, but thankfully Jesus cleaned the slate for us, now we have to keep it clean ourselves"

Of course man is responsible for working out what God works in, but every last thing in the Christian life is in Christ alone. My acceptance with God is through Christ, my righteousness is Christ, my sanctification is Christ, in him I live and move and breathe. There is not an ounce of self that can glory in anything other than Christ.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/9/13 15:18Profile









 Re:

Logic said:

Quote:
I for got who, but some one here gave a good example of Romans 5:
Lets follow the analogy:
1.
by the offence
by the righteousness

2.
of one
of one

3.
judgment came
the free gift came

4.
upon all men
upon all men

5.
to condemnation
unto justification of life

Therefore, in whatever way that judgment cam upon all men, so also justification came upon all men.

If Justification is not forced upon all men, then is condemnation not forced upon all men.

However, both have come upon all men: condemnation through Adam, and justification through Jesus.

It is the individuals choices that determine whether they are condemned or justified.

If you live in sin, which all men will choose to do starting with Adam, you will be condemned.
If you live in God, which some men will choose to do by Jesus,you will be justified.



I couldn't have said it better myself!! That is sound doctrine, very good theology. It's terrible how some twist and manipulate Romans 5 to fit their Augustinianism/Calvinism.

If someone gets Romans 5 wrong their whole theology will be wrong. Condemnation with Adam is a choice and justification through Christ is a choice.


Logic said:

Quote:
Once justied, we are saints, no longer sinners.There is no such thing as a sinful saint....

What is the saving work of Christ if we are still sinners? We are currently saved from our sins and no longer sinners(Matthew 1:21).



AMEN AMEN AMEN! Away with a sinning religion! Life with Christ is liberty and freedom! [b]A conversion that leaves a man a sinner is a conversion without a new birth!!![/b] Christianity is victorious, not a defeatism!

 2007/9/13 15:50
myfirstLove
Member



Joined: 2005/11/26
Posts: 496


 Re:

Quote:
And since you are a male, you are not any different than any other male( I don't think I need to go into detail), thus you are prone to sinful thoughts, and ideas just like your brothers who you esteem as weak, or wrong.



Maybe, I'm not understanding you, roaringlamb.

Are you saying that men cannot stop lusting (of
corse in Christ, not of ourselves)?


_________________
Lisa

 2007/9/13 16:42Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
Wrong again;
Hebrews 4:11 Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

But is not the rest brought by Christ, and also given once we believe?
Hebrews 4:3 [b]For we which have believed do enter into rest[/b], as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.


The proper Greek is:
[b]Heb 4:3[/b] [color=990000]Then we who believe are [b]entering[/b] into the rest...[/color]
The enterance is a continual laboring.

[b]Heb 4:11[/b] [color=990000]We should be [b]endeavoring[/b], then, to be entering into that stopping...[/color]

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Well brother I think you do not understand the depth of your sin.

Christians are not held accountable for a sin.
[b]Rom 4:8[/b] [color=990000]Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.[/color]
We are free from sin, though we may stumble.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
But my problem is that you and others say that man can do it,

I say thay we can choose to come to Christ, but He does the saving.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
and then when pressed, you backtrack and say, "of course we really can't do it on our own, but thankfully Jesus cleaned the slate for us, now we have to keep it clean ourselves"

Do you disagree that we need to stay away from sinning, by comming to Christ?
That would be us "keeping it clean" with Christ as the means.

As for Christinyou, I have no idea what he is trying to say :-?

 2007/9/13 17:02Profile





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