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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : WHO is the CAUSE of sin and WHAT is the SOURCE of sin?

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 Re:

Logic,

I'm really glad that you are on these boards!!

 2007/9/12 22:40
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Since Adam died spiritualy from his own sin, so do we from our first own sin.



Brother I will never understand how you can argue that there is "life" in natural man when the Scriptures declare man is "dead in sin".

What do you say to these verses-
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Do these not both clearly show that God has to give life to the dead man? It does not say wounded, sick, but dead.

Quote:
The inclination of our will effects individual choices that we make



And natural man will not choose anything but sin, because that is what his heart is set upon.

Our Lord told people things like the following-
John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
John 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
John 5:40 And [b]ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.[/b]

Now in contrast to the last verse, look at the next chapter-
John 6:37 [b]All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.[/b]
John 6:44 [b]No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:[/b] and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
John 6:65 And he said, [b]Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.[/b]

Now consider the words Jesus speaks to the Jews who "believed" in Him, but refused to admit a need to be set free from bondage-

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will(desire to) do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
John 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Now notice what Jesus says-
John 8:47 [b]He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.[/b]

Now in regard to Adam and his offspring, after he fell, there was not only physical death, but spiritual as well. Then in Genesis 5 we read-
"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, [b]after his image;[/b] and called his name Seth:"(v3)

No longer in the image of God because of Adam's sin, but rather after the image of Adam, sinful and dead in sin. Now what difference there is between this and Cain and Abel, I do not know, but it is safe to say that even those two show the sin that came into man and his descendants.

Quote:
One is able to be persuaded to move from his original will to will to be in Christ.



Yes and this is the work of God in regeneration of the heart. He removes the heart of stone that hates God and His laws, and replaces it with a heart of flesh that is now alive and has His law written upon it.

This new heart believes in Christ, and will seek to please Him, and follow Him. What was once foolishness(loving and obeying God)is now joyous.

Quote:
1Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaks explicitly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to deceitful spirits, and doctrines of demons;



But look at what John says about those who go out-
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for [b]if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us:[/b] but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Quote:
Adam did damage to the world by introducing physical death and bringing offence into the world.
However man can only be sinless when perfected, however, man is born sinless.



Brother does it not bother you that you are putting forth an idea that has multiple times been labeled heresy by the Church?

Not only did the Protestants find this unscriptural, but so did the Roman Catholics at first. Sadly though they as well as the Church at large today have been taken into the Pelagian captivity and see no harm in it.

Quote:
How so?


If man has no fallen state in Adam, he needs no salvation in Christ because he can ultimately save himself by his obedience to the Law.

If indeed his sin is only his own, and he is born without sin, then he could perceivably live without sin and be another sinless one could he not? Then there would be multiple saviours, and man would be his own saviour.

Of course this is ludicrous, and I am not saying that this what you're teaching. But you must trace out the conclusions you can come to if in fact what you are saying is true.

Grace and peace to you




_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/9/12 23:02Profile









 Re:

Sinners are voluntarily dead in sin, that is the same as saying that sinners are voluntarily void of righteousness.

The bible says that babies are born "innocent", that babies are "innocent blood". And more specifically the bible says that babies in the womb "have not yet done good or evil" Romans 9:11

Each sinner is responsible for his own sin because his own sins are caused by himself. If each sinner did not cause their own sin, it could not be their own sin! And each sinner is responsible for sinning because they had the power not to sin.

So each sinner is the cause of their own sin and a wrong use of freewill is the source of all sin.

Like Pelagius rightly taught, YOU CANNOT BLAME GOD, ADAM, THE DEVIL, or NATURE FOR YOUR OWN VOLUNTARY CHOICES!!

 2007/9/12 23:07
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

But why do men sin without any regard for their Creator? You keep going around in circles.

I have no problem with God's sovereignty, and man's responsibility, for all man is doomed and is commanded to repent and believe the Gospel. The very fact that men rather hate the Gospel, and want nothing to do with it until God changes their heart should show us the monster that man is in his natural state.

And again, I believe men make voluntary choices, but their choices are bound to their will, and no man will come to Christ until the Father draws him.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/9/12 23:20Profile









 Re:

All men need the influence of the Spirit or they will not come to Christ.

And all men are bound to act according to their will. But they have control over their will. They can will good or will evil. And all sinners choose to will evil.

The will is under the law of influence and response not cause and effect.

- That is why you find Paul reasoning, persuading, and disputing with sinners in the book of Acts.

- That is why Paul even said that we are Christ's representatives BEGGING sinners to be reconciled unto God.

Because God will not spiritually rape anyone, but God is spiritually influencing all men to have a voluntary relationship with him.

 2007/9/12 23:25
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Because God will not spiritually rape anyone, but God is spiritually influencing all men to have a voluntary relationship with him.



God is working to change the hearts of those whom He gave to Christ to pay for their sins. Those whom are not His sheep, will never complain of God's unfairness as they love to sin and will sin on into eternity.

If God does not change the will of a man, he will not seek forgiveness of his sins.

And actually, if you look at the verb for "draw" used in John 6:44, you will find this-
helkuō / helkō
Thayer Definition:
1) to draw, drag off
2) metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel

So in a sense God is dragging, but because men have a new will it is not contrary to their will at all. No forcing of anything at all.

Perhaps you try to force people to believe, and brow beat them with morals, and then offer them the hopelessness of a Christless religion in which their salvation is based upon their ability to live perfectly, but God does not inflict this upon people.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/9/12 23:38Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Man is the implementer of sin. Satan is the spreader of sin. Who say sin is sin? God is the author.

James 1:12-17 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

What is the greatest work God has done? Is it not the Cross. What is the Greatest work Christ has done. It is not to do the will of the Father. The Cross of Christ was His obedience and our salvation. Is it not our obedience to
Christ by Him that is in us.. Who was in Christ?
The Father. Who is in us? The Son. How could we possibly do greater works than He did. By He that is in us. Our personal work is to "present ourselves a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable which is our reasonable service." Then the works of Christ can be done in us by Him and these are the greater works than He has already done. The Body of Christ His Church.


In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/9/13 1:03Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
So are you saying that Adam is the cause of all sin or that God is the cause of all sin?


Jesse
You are never going to get this right until you give due weight to Romans 5 and one man's transgression impacting the whole race. You never seem to take up any of my invitations to identify what you mean by sin. Are you talking about the root or the fruit? Are you talking about something that rules like a tyrant or something that I myself choose to do?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/9/13 5:15Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
Since Adam died spiritualy from his own sin, so do we from our first own sin.



Brother I will never understand how you can argue that there is "life" in natural man when the Scriptures declare man is "dead in sin".

If you read closly, I do not say that natural man has sppiritual life in him, I am saying that he lost it by himself with his own first sin & not with Adam's sin.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
And natural man will not choose anything but sin, because that is what his heart is set upon.

As I said, one may be persuaded.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Our Lord told people things like the following-
John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
John 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

How do you put up with a devilish tyrant that creates man to destroy in hell?
Your interp. of this would be saying [b]John 5:21[/b] For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
[b]John 5:40[/b] And I will not let you come to me, that ye might have life

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Now in contrast to the last verse, look at the next chapter-
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Again, How do you put up with a devilish tyrant that creates man to destroy in hell?
Whom ever the Father does not give to the son was created for hell and are only doing what they were created to do, and that is to sin.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will(desire to) do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
John 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Now notice what Jesus says-
John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Your interp. of this would be saying:
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, of whom I created you to be of.
I made him a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
John 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, I don't let you believe me...
John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because I created you not of God.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Now in regard to Adam and his offspring, after he fell, there was not only physical death, but spiritual as well. Then in [b]Genesis 5[/b] we read-
"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:"(v3)

No longer in the image of God because of Adam's sin, but rather after the image of Adam, sinful and dead in sin. Now what difference there is between this and Cain and Abel, I do not know, but it is safe to say that even those two show the sin that came into man and his descendants.

[b]Gen 9:6[/b] [color=990000]Whoever sheds man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.[/color]
[b]James 3:9[/b] [color=990000]With this bless we God, even the Father; and with this curse we men, who are made after the similitude of God.[/color]
God still reguards all manking in HIS image.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
One is able to be persuaded to move from his original will to will to be in Christ.

Yes and this is the work of God in regeneration of the heart. He removes the heart of stone that hates God and His laws, and replaces it with a heart of flesh that is now alive and has His law written upon it.

This new heart believes in Christ, and will seek to please Him, and follow Him. What was once foolishness(loving and obeying God)is now joyous.


The regeneration of the heartsalvation. Therefore, in that respect, yes one is able to be persuaded to move from his original will to will to be in Christ.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
1Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaks explicitly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to deceitful spirits, and doctrines of demons;

But look at what John says about those who go out-
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

He was talking about antichrists.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Brother does it not bother you that you are putting forth an idea that has multiple times been labeled heresy by the Church?


Does it not bother you that your god is a devilish tyrant?

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
]Not only did the Protestants find this unscriptural, but so did the Roman Catholics at first. Sadly though they as well as the Church at large today have been taken into the Pelagian captivity and see no harm in it.

I am not fully Pelagian!
I am only Putting fourth common sence as also Lazarus1719.
I'm glad it is not only me who has a level head in this forum.
You are the one putting the guilt of the sin of man onto God, while I am keeping it on man.
Just as the opening post in this thread is to do.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
If man has no fallen state in Adam, he needs no salvation in Christ because he can ultimately save himself by his obedience to the Law.

I am not denying the fallen state of man, I am only defining it as ones own fault for his own fall, not some distant relitives fault.
Furthermore, I am not claimming that man can save himself by the law.
I am attempting to say that man can only choose to do good if his will is in Christ.

Man has free will; however, while one may will to do good, he is unable to do the good that he wants to do. [b]Rom 7:19[/b] [color=990000]I don't do the good that I actually want to do, but I do the evil that don't want to do.[/color]

For anyone without faith may will to do good or evil, for the natural man can not until he chooses to first have faith in Christ for the ability. Only until man chooses to put his faith in Christ he will stay a slave of sin.
The will is crippled in doing any good until the will is in Christ. After our will is to be in Christ (which is to have faith) we, then, will have a changed life, a new view on life, and a new motive for everything that you do. In these new aspects of your life will become actions or works(fruit) that give a testimony of Christ in you.

Yes, man can have a will to do both good and evil from birth regardless, however as I have shown, forgive me for repeating myself, the will is crippled in doing any good because of the flesh. Only untill the will is in Christ is there any ability to do good, and the only good is in faith and walking after the spirit.

The bottom line is, man wills to do good but is incapable untill he chooses to submit to God.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
If indeed his sin is only his own, and he is born without sin, then he could perceivably live without sin and be another sinless one could he not?

No!
How would one not sin if one has not faith in Chrisat?
If indeed his sin is only his own, and he is born without sin, He must know Christ to have Eternal Life(John 17:3). He must know Christ in order not to sin and walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit(Rom 8:1b).
Those who are born are born of the flesh and the flesh needs to be delt with.
[b]Rom 8:3-4[/b] [color=990000]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[b]:4[/b] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.[/color]

 2007/9/13 10:15Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
philologos wrote:
Quote:
So are you saying that Adam is the cause of all sin or that God is the cause of all sin?

You are never going to get this right until you give due weight to Romans 5 and one man's transgression impacting the whole race.


I for got who, but some one here gave a good example of Romans 5:
Lets follow the analogy:
1.
by the offence
by the righteousness

2.
of one
of one

3.
judgment came
the free gift came

4.
upon all men
upon all men

5.
to condemnation
unto justification of life

Therefore, in whatever way that judgment cam upon all men, so also justification came upon all men.

If Justification is not forced upon all men, then is condemnation not forced upon all men.

However, both have come upon all men: condemnation through Adam, and justification through Jesus.

It is the individuals choices that determine whether they are condemned or justified.

If you live in sin, which all men will choose to do starting with Adam, you will be condemned.
If you live in God, which some men will choose to do by Jesus,you will be justified.

Quote:
philologos wrote:
You never seem to take up any of my invitations to identify what you mean by sin. Are you talking about the root or the fruit? Are you talking about something that rules like a tyrant or something that I myself choose to do

Sin is a fruit and the root of the fruit is what ever one is grafted in.

[b]John 15:4b[/b] [color=990000]...As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.[/color]
[b]Romans 11:16b[/b][color=990000]...if the root is holy, so are the branches.[/color]
[b]Romans 11:24[/b] [color=990000]For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree...[/color]

While we were not yet grafted into the cultivated olive tree, we were of our own tree with the root of ourself or in this world. If our root is of ourself or the world, we are selfish &/or worldly.

People do not have a "sin nature" just as an apple tree does not have an apple nature.
All sin is fruit from what man is rooted in, which is of eather three things. Rooted in Christ, the world or self.

Since Christ is the Root/Vine & man a tree/vinebranch.
If man is not grafted into Christ, he is selfish &/or wotldly, because he has his own self as his root. Or he may also be worldly, for that is all he has(John 15:9, 1John 2:15)
This is the cause of all mans wickedness, that man is of the world and selfish and not of Christ and loving.

Therefore, the fruit does not make its nature, nor does the nature deside what its fruit is.

What makes it's fruit is what kind of tree and what it's root is of.
[b]James 1:24[/b] [color=990000]for he studied himself, and has gone away, and immediately he forgot of what [b]kind[/b] he was.[/color]

What ever fruit it bears, the tree still has a tree nature. not an apple nature, oriange nature, banana nature.
The kind of fruit obviously does not change what it is or what nature it has.
However, what ever it is grafted into does change it's fruit, just as my analogy shows, which is of Scripture as I have shown.

What ever fruit man bears, sin or righteousness, it is still human nature.

Just a s a trees nature is to bear fruit, so is mans.

Quote:
philologos wrote:
Are you talking about something that rules like a tyrant or something that [u]I myself choose to do[/u]?

The second part.
The flesh is what "rules like a tyrant", not sin.

 2007/9/13 12:12Profile





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