| Poster | Thread | LoveHim
Member
Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US
| | Re: | | Quote:
One must only believe, then he is born again.
that is correct brother phillip. the question is why does calvinism declare that unregerate man (even with help from the Holy Spirit) cannot come to believe in God? that would mean that man must first be regenerated to come to God, but that begs another question... why would one need to be regerated to be regerated?? and if one was already regerated, then why does he need to come to be saved because to be regerated is to already be saved. so it does not add up biblically with ephesians 2:8.. 3 steps
1) man reaches out in faith to Christ [b]for salvation[/b].
2) man receives God's grace
3) man is saved
such is the order that the bible shows us. looking forward to you responses.. love you guys.
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|  2007/9/11 8:24 | Profile | whyme
Member
Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293
| | Re: | | Quote:
LoveHim wrote:
Quote:
One must only believe, then he is born again.
that is correct brother phillip. the question is why does calvinism declare that unregerate man (even with help from the Holy Spirit) cannot come to believe in God? that would mean that man must first be regenerated to come to God, but that begs another question... why would one need to be regerated to be regerated?? and if one was already regerated, then why does he need to come to be saved because to be regerated is to already be saved. so it does not add up biblically with ephesians 2:8.. 3 steps
1) man reaches out in faith to Christ [b]for salvation[/b].
2) man receives God's grace
3) man is saved
such is the order that the bible shows us. looking forward to you responses.. love you guys.
Brother, why does Jesus tell Nicodemas in John 3 that one must be born again to "see" ( in the Greek understand or know ) the kingdom of God? Ce |
| | 2007/9/11 8:35 | Profile | LoveHim
Member
Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US
| | Re: | | Quote:
Brother, why does Jesus tell Nicodemas in John 3 that one must be born again to "see" ( in the Greek understand or know ) the kingdom of God?
if i answer you brother, will you please answer my questions about ephesians 2:8??
concerning Jesus and nicodemus, this verse is reminds me of 1 corinthians 2:14. that the unbeliever cannot understand the things of the Spirit. where brother whyme, does it say that an unbeliever cannot understand to be born again?? where does it say that an unbeliever cannot reach out in faith and be saved?? it doesn't brother, you have to read that into it.
an unbeliever will not understand the [b]things, ways[/b] of the Spirit, but it nowhere says that you must be saved before you can be saved, which is what you are saying.. do you see that this is what you are telling someone?? if you can please re-read my post and answer ephesians 2:8, i would be grateful..
thanks brother.
-phil |
| | 2007/9/11 8:43 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
1) man reaches out in faith to Christ for salvation.
2) man receives God's grace
3) man is saved
According to Romans 10, faith is not something that originates in us and, thus, we use to "reach" out to Christ.
But faith, "comes" to us, by the preaching of the Word of God.
Quote:
6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Quote:
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Faith is a gift. I agree with you, that faith is the vehicle through which we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, but that faith does not originate with us. It is created in us by the preaching of the Word of God.
God creates all things by His Word.
Quote:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
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| | 2007/9/11 9:07 | | whyme
Member
Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293
| | Re: | | Quote:
LoveHim wrote:
Quote:
Brother, why does Jesus tell Nicodemas in John 3 that one must be born again to "see" ( in the Greek understand or know ) the kingdom of God?
if i answer you brother, will you please answer my questions about ephesians 2:8??
concerning Jesus and nicodemus, this verse is reminds me of 1 corinthians 2:14. that the unbeliever cannot understand the things of the Spirit. where brother whyme, does it say that an unbeliever cannot understand to be born again?? where does it say that an unbeliever cannot reach out in faith and be saved?? it doesn't brother, you have to read that into it.
an unbeliever will not understand the [b]things, ways[/b] of the Spirit, but it nowhere says that you must be saved before you can be saved, which is what you are saying.. do you see that this is what you are telling someone?? if you can please re-read my post and answer ephesians 2:8, i would be grateful..
thanks brother.
-phil
Brother Phil,
I don't think I can answer you in a different way than I have. To me, the choice to believe is based on faith. Faith comes from God. I do not know what you mean by reach out in faith. Faith is the source of the reaching out that you describe. Reaching out is a response, not a cause. Faith is the source. I think if you look at the parable of the sower in Luke, please note that the only faith that endures comes from the sowing of the work into good soil which Luke describes as a "good and noble heart". I have yet to see a good and noble heart ascribed to any unbeleiver. In fact, just the opposite is described. The heart is wicked and deceitful and sinful and spiritually dead in its natural state. I personally believe a good and noble heart is a result of a new supernatural creation ( born again ) producing good soil that the word can take root in and bear fruit. Jesus said that if you can understand this parable or truth, then you can understand all the other parables. |
| | 2007/9/11 9:22 | Profile | LoveHim
Member
Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US
| | Re: | | Quote:
According to Romans 10, faith is not something that originates in us and, thus, we use to "reach" out to Christ.
But faith, "comes" to us, by the preaching of the Word of God.
please look at the strongs definition for faith. it is [b]reliance upon Christ for salvation[/b]. so whether that faith comes from preaching or merely hearing the word, we take that word and trust in Christ for salvation. that is biblical faith.Quote:
Faith is a gift. I agree with you, that faith is the vehicle through which we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, but that faith does not originate with us. It is created in us by the preaching of the Word of God.
what is the gift in this passage?? i would declare that grace is the gift that is being described here as the gift.
1) strong's concordence tells us that in the greek for grace that it means graciousness, gift, etc.
2) this passage is contrasting grace vs works righteousness.
that is why he tells us it is the gift of God. what is?? His grace that brings salvation.
thanks mahoney,
-phil
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| | 2007/9/11 10:14 | Profile |
| | Re: | | I fear this thread is digressing and becoming unedifying. Let's keep our eyes and our hearts on the Lord Jesus, and be prayerful, seeking His mind and His will in every way. It's tempting to try to grasp with your mind how salvation or God works, and fit it nicely into some system of theology, but it is not necessary for Him to be still working. We needn't know what happened is us--the very steps of the process--in order for God to complete His work in us.
Maybe it is a choice (somewhere down the road): but I choose to trust in Him completely, and not trust in myself (my feelings, my reasoning, my memory, my ability, etc.). He is my only hope. He alone imparts knowledge by revelation (by the Spirit of wisdom and revelation), of this I am convinced; our fleshly, blinded minds profit us nothing. Will you permit me to throw in this quote by Watchman Nee:
"One thing we must guard against: we should never use ... knowledge ... as an aid in analyzing ourselves. If in God's light we see light, we shall know ourselves without losing our freedom in the Lord. But if all day long we analyze ourselves, dissecting our thoughts and feelings, it will hinder us from losing ourselves in Christ. Unless a believer is deeply taught by the Lord he will not be able to know himself. Introspection and self-consciousness are harmful to spiritual life." (from [i]The Spiritual Man[/i] (1928), Preface 1)
Let us ask our Heavenly Father to reveal to us which is edifying. Often times we may speak the truth without love and cause much harm, so truth alone is not sufficient. Being right is no excuse. We must always, being spiritual people, seek and lean on the leading of the Holy Spirit.
In Christ,
Slavyan |
| | 2007/9/11 10:40 | | LoveHim
Member
Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US
| | Re: | | brother whyme,
let us distinguish betwen faith and biblical faith. biblical faith is [b]reliance upon Christ for salvation[/b]. but brother everyone has regular faith because faith merely means trust. brother whyme, the unbeliever trust in himself and his works, does he not?? then his faith is in self. the pharisee had a faith, but it was a faith based on his works and his own self-righteousness. but neither the pharisee nor the unbeliever had biblical faith, that is certain.
let us not forget also that there is a dead faith, one that has mental consent to truth but no action to verify it. (my point is to show that there are different kinds of faith).
to say that only the heart that receives the word in faith (biblical trusting in God faith) will produce fruit, then i will agree with you. amen brother, that is true. but to take that parable where it was not meant to go is to misunderstand the passage of salvation in ephesians 2. Quote:
I personally believe a good and noble heart is a result of a new supernatural creation ( born again ) producing good soil that the word can take root in and bear fruit.
look at what you are saying. if you combine this thought with ephesians 2 you are saying that one must be born again to receive faith which we then extend to Christ to receive His grace and become saved. do you see this?? you cannot reconcile this difference brother. if one is born again, then he does not need to extend biblical faith for salvation. brother, he would already be saved. we are not born again to be saved.. that does not make sense nor is it correct according to ephesians 2:8.
i hope that i kinda made sense in my replies. forgive me if i don't. thanks for the discussion brother whyme,
your brother in Christ,
phil
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| | 2007/9/11 10:45 | Profile | LoveHim
Member
Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US
| | Re: | | Quote:
I fear this thread is digressing and becoming unedifying.
Quote:
Let us ask our Heavenly Father to reveal to us which is edifying. Often times we may speak the truth without love and cause much harm, so truth alone is not sufficient. Being right is no excuse. We must always, being spiritual people, seek and lean on the leading of the Holy Spirit.
brothers forgive me if i have made this an unedifying thread. i am sorry if any post of mine have been taken to feel this way.
all i am desiring to do with this thread is hold up ephesians 2:8 and disect it according to the word. if anyone has felt that i have done this in a wrong spirit or if it came across wrongly, then i ask for your forgiveness.
i hope that we can continue discussing these things in a godly manner.
-phil
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| | 2007/9/11 10:52 | Profile | rookie
Member
Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN
| | Re: | | Quote:
I start at the end and work backwards. Lastly, Believers choose. Previous to choosing, they trust in Christ. Previous to trusting, they believe. Previous to believing is faith. Previous to faith is understanding the truth. Previous to understanding is having the mind enlightened. Previous to enlightenment is hearing of the word. Previous to hearing is preaching or revelation.
I believe Scripture teaches that it is God through the Holy Spirit who reaches out to us in diverse manners to bring us to the point of decision. Below are testimonies of God's diverse manners of dispensing His grace toward men.
Job 33:14 For God speaketh once, yea twice, [yet man] perceiveth it not.
Job 33:15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;
Job 33:16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,
Job 33:17 That he may withdraw man [from his] purpose, and hide pride from man.
Job 33:18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.
Job 33:19 ¶ He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong [pain]:
Job 33:20 So that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat.
Job 33:21 His flesh is consumed away, that it cannot be seen; and his bones [that] were not seen stick out.
Job 33:22 Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.
Job 33:23 ¶ If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness:
Job 33:24 Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.
Job 33:25 His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:
Job 33:26 He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.
Job 33:27 He looketh upon men, and [if any] say, I have sinned, and perverted [that which was] right, and it profited me not;
Job 33:28 He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.
Job 33:29 Lo, all these [things] worketh God oftentimes with man,
Job 33:30 To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living.
Also we have this testimony in Proverbs...
Pro 8:1 ¶ Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
Pro 8:2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
Pro 8:3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
Pro 8:4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice [is] to the sons of man.
Pro 8:5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
ro 8:6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips [shall be] right things.
Pro 8:7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness [is] an abomination to my lips.
Pro 8:8 All the words of my mouth [are] in righteousness; [there is] nothing froward or perverse in them.
Pro 8:9 They [are] all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.
Pro 8:10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
Pro 8:11 For wisdom [is] better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
Pro 8:12 ¶ I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
Pro 8:13 The fear of the LORD [is] to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Pro 8:14 Counsel [is] mine, and sound wisdom: I [am] understanding; I have strength.
The 'wisdom of God" is dispensed by the Holy Spirit unto men...our choice is to hear or reject the grace extended towards us.
God Bless
In Christ
Jeff
_________________
Jeff Marshalek
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| | 2007/9/12 18:39 | Profile |
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