2. It is a reaction to the mystery of prayer and our 'co-working' with God in the fulfillment of his purposes. This mystery cannot be explained by concluding that God needs our help. He has determined to accomplish certain things in fellowship with man, and such things will not be accomplished without fellowship with man. There is a simple passage of scripture which expresses the balance perfectly...
The best antidote to these current poisons is a good dose of A W Tozer!
_________________Mike Balog
bro Nile Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.i browsed through the article you cited...curiously it began with a word which doesn't describe anything God would have us do as His people..."imagine" in fact dear brother, each time the word "imagine" is used in scripture, the context is ALWAYS negative, that is in opposition to God or the man of God or the people of God so from jump, that's bad business right there. There is talk of imagining vain things, wicked things, mischief and so on; also that imaginings are things which God hates whether they are plots or ideas being tossed about and this whole open theism deal is vain, wicked and quite mischievous just like it's author Satan who is a liar and the father of all lies. to imagine implies loosing your mind and letting it run which is in contrast to the exhortation Paul gives us to hold each thought captive and make it conform to Christ...do a search on the word "imagine" throughout the scriptures and see for yourself.also look up imaginations in scripture and see what the word has to say about that word.Romans 1 vs 21 says:[b]21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. [/b]so what shall we say bro Nile? is God not to be Glorified as God being All-Knowing and indeed All Knowledge? to fail to see this and cop out is to fail to be thankful for this Attribute of God which allows for Him to preserve us through this life and to work all things out for our good since we Love Him and are called according to His Purpose. This unthankfulness is of the devil and leads to vain imaginings such as these and the darkenening of one's heart and when one thinks himself wise he becomes a fool as bro Pratney has become on this matter and as have you also. what this doctrine has done is made the Omniscience of God into something like unto an animal's knowledge or like man's knowledge and understanding of things. This is to say you and others of this same school of thought have dimished the Omniscience of God and likened it to your own corruptible limited understanding, humanizing God and deifying yourselves and that is what Satan does. however i praise God that He sais this to us in 2 Corinthians 10:[b]3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5 Casting down imaginations, F25 and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. [/b]praise God for this! The enemy from the beginning wanted to exalt himself above the Throne of God (see in Isaiah and Ezekiel on the king of Babylon and Prince of Tyre respectively) and so it follows that his thoughts and imaginings and reasonings are designed to make God appear smaller and himself larger and this appeals to man who in his fallen state thinks more of himself than he ought and so needs to die. Bless God that the weapons of the Christian are designed to undo strongholds and vain imaginings like this one which seek to exalt themselves above God and also place satan and man on par with or above God in exalting these 2 or bringing down (trying to anyway) God. Those thoughts need to be held down and made to conform to Christ and not run wild and form a wicked system of belief such as this that God doesn't know the beginning from the end and the end from the beginning especially when He says He IS the Beginning and the End. The word of God is such that it can refute and tear down these vain imaginings so that no man is left with any excuse. to some of the questions you asked:
Why does God ever use the word "if"?
Why was God sorry He had made man (before the flood)? If God knew He would be sorry, He wouldn't have made man.
Why does God create people whom He knows will suffer in Hell forever?
Why does God act all throughout the Bible as if He is in time like we are?
Did you know that I was elected...by NC State to go to their school? That's right. And it didn't take divine impossible foreknowledge either.I was also predestined from the foundation of the school to attend NC State. I am the exact type of them that are predestined to the school: High GPA, AP credits, High SAT.
_________________Farai Bamu
To say that open theism is "straight out of the bowels of the devil" shows that you may not know the position very well.First and foremost, open theists believe that God knows all things, too. We just believe that many aspects of the future do not exist yet because of the nature of a free-will universe (which God gloriously created).
God doesn't use the word "if" in the sense of being unsure of anything but in the sense of KNOWING all possible outcomes. So "if" we repented, "then" He would forgive us, "if we the people called by His Name would humble ourselves and repent, then He will hear from Heaven and HEal our land.
_________________Melanie
bro HopepurifiesGreetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.
First and foremost, open theists believe that God knows all things, too. We just believe that many aspects of the future do not exist yet because of the nature of a free-will universe (which God gloriously created).
Amen. (Yes, I'm pulling a strawman out of your post) This is exactly what we are saying. Our choices do not catch God by surprise as in "Wow, I didn't know that man could do that!" However, until the future happens, the choice hasn't been made, and does not exist to be known.
Nile's NC state illustration was to show that the calvinist/determinist understanding of predestination and election might not be what was intended by the writers of scripture. See the interplay between Nile's freewill choices to do well in school to meet the requirements, and NC States sovereignty and knowledge which caused them to admit Nile.
Back to the original post- God "learning" does strike a weird note in me. In a sense He is learning, but in another sense He isn't. He isn't learning new ways to deal with things or new ways to behave, He is merely learning what actions men and other freewill creatures (angels?) make.
_________________Ron Bailey
philogos, you simply do not understand the open theist position.
Omniscience does not mean 'knowing all that CAN be known'; that is a diluted definition of omniscience. Omni = all, without mitigation. Either God knows all or he doesn't . If he doesn't know ALL he is not omniscient. ALL does not mean "all that there is to know", it means all.
I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them. (Isaiah 48:5 KJVS)
What you have written here ...'until the future happens... (it) does not exist to be known...' is in direct opposition to the word of God through Isaiah.
..the god of the open-theists is just too small.
_________________Matthew Miskiewicz
Do you believe God knows things that God cannot know? Yes or No?
This is just so silly. You're defining "all" in the most absurd way.Do you believe God knows things that God cannot know? Yes or No?If you say no, you admit that God does not know "ALL" things.If you say yes, you have created a logical impossibility that does not exist.Does God know that pink elephants run the universe? Yes or No?If you say no, you admit that God does not know "ALL" things.If you say yes...lol.
Does God know that pink elephants run the universe? Yes or No?
It means God has declared the end from the beginning. The exact choices of each individual are not necessary to know to know the end from the beginning. This isn't rocket science.
philogos, can God create a rock so big He cannot lift it?
bro NileGreetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.you said:
If you say no, you admit that God does not know "ALL" things.
If you say yes, you have created a logical impossibility that does not exist.
If you say no, then then you're attack on open theism is a vain and hypocritical: "The god of philogos is so small and tiny! He can't even create a rock so big he can't lift it!"
Michael,
Nile, could you please give an example of something God cannot know?
This verse plainly says that God knows things 'before they come to pass'. You say that until the future happens it does not exist..to be known. Does God know the future before it happens or doesn't he?
Don't you know that there is nothing an infinitely powerful God cannot do, other than what he has deciced not to do?
You are asking 'can God create something which is greater than himself'. There can be nothing greater than God; everything is in him and by him and for him.
To accuse me of potential hypocrisy is foolish. A hypocrite is an actor, someone who pretends to be what he is not. In my confidence in an infinite, omnipotent, omniscient God... I am no hypocrite.
philogos, can God create a rock so big He cannot lift it?If you say no, then then you're attack on open theism is a vain and hypocritical: "The god of philogos is so small and tiny! He can't even create a rock so big he can't lift it!"
