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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Capital Punishment & War

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crsschk wrote:
I am well aware of the point you were driving home and that is why I posted my reply. Your post to me was more of a statement, than a question. A statement I have addressed over and over again. A way of thinking I believe that is turning a nation that once honored God and country into deception of just how we are to resist evil in the world. Brother, I am well aware you have plenty of company in this way of new modern way of thinking.

That is an insinuation and wrong Moe, Compton need not have to had to state this;

I still think it's an interesting question, but I see now that any possible answer would only result in strife. I'll just admit it was a mistake to ask the question,... I regret asking it, and drop the issue.


moe_mac wrote:
I agree Compton, I see had no reason to withdraw the question either. This is a forum of opinions on what God's Word to each one of us and what it has to say to us in general and it seems what it has to say on relevancy of the current times. Can I ask you if you think Compton's opinion more important than mine? I don't think so, nor his opinion any less important than mine, either. I gave an opinion and not an insinuation on a way of thinking not a personal insult, at least that was what I intended. If the shoe doesn't fit, he doesn't have to wear it. My comments were not actually addressed to Compton as much as what I believe to be a force against truth and to subdue any resistance against evil. It is not a stuggle against flesh and blood but powers and principalities. In have no fight with or am I angry with Compton or anyone else on SI, including you, but I do with have a problem with the devil's lies that a government is not to resist evil. Preachparly just today wrote a post on the difference between how God's Word applies to individuals and government. Great post preachparsly

If you wish, you are the moderator and after this post of rebuke to me, I must say this, I am well aware of your authority as a moderator and all you have to do is tell me that I am not welcome to my opinion of what God's Word says on SI and I will not make anymore post. I had rather you do it on a public post, if you choose not to give me that priviledge to post, rather than private communication or just locking out my address where I can't comment. But until that time I must continue to speak what I believe to be truth.

edit: well I guess it wasn't preachparly that wrote the diffence on God's Word in government and individuals at least I can't find it now. Excuse!!!

 2007/9/8 17:01

Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164


well I guess it wasn't preachparly that wrote the diffence on God's Word in government and individuals at least I can't find it now.

:-D I think you are referring to the first post on this thread, right?

Josh Parsley

 2007/9/8 17:20Profile



PreachParsly wrote:
well I guess it wasn't preachparly that wrote the diffence on God's Word in government and individuals at least I can't find it now.

:-D I think you are referring to the first post on this thread, right?

Yes Sir that is correct. It was not you that wrote the post. I stand corrected and apoligize for the error. :oops:

 2007/9/8 17:29

Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


Well it seems that sometimes, like in basketball, you need to follow through your shots. :-) ...can't just retract it once it's out there.

I was less worried that Moe was angry with me, and more concerned that I was perhaps unconsciously baiting people with my question. Honestly, my little girl's account of her classmates abstaining from saying the pledge was kind of a promptor for me to ask if anyone here agreed.

I've read many of Moe's posts and know how much he love's the Lord, and am glad to call him a friend in this forum. (Well, we all are!)Chalk this one up to poor communication.

Thanks Preach for this...

...personally it troubles my conscience to pledge allegiance to the flag.

I certainly understand this, and even respect the consistency, the intellectual integrity, and the moral honesty your conflict of conscience demonstrates.

I should answer my own question. Personally I am honored to say the pledge of allegiance because I am only pledging allegiance to the highest ideals of this nation, and not to the corruption and morally bankrupt leaders who currently plague it. I do not believe I am being hypocrytical in choosing to see my country with such filtered vision, because I use the same kind of hopeful filter in choosing to love the Church.

One of my all time favorite movie lines is from the film "The War to End all Wars." There is a scene where these WWII Scottish POW's in a Japanese camp were being permitted to form a crude orchestra as a reward for good behavior. On the night of their big concert they played the familiar theme of Beethoven's 9th Symphony "Ode to Joy." The moment left a lasting impression on me. As the half starved musicians in ragged clothes began to play their string and wind intruments, the air was filled with a lush rich symphonic recording of the music that embodied hope and joy, but all too soon this wonderful sound faded away into the actual sound the prisoners were really making...a pitiful squawking and wheezing of untuned, dissonant, broken intruments. But the narrator's voice explained the real meaning of the scene. "That night the music we made wasn't exactly beautiful. In fact it was bloody awful. But to our ears it was the most glorious thing we had ever heard. It was the sound of what we could be. It was the sound of freedom." (Aprox. paraphrase)

This to how I can pledge allegiance to these United States without conflict in my conscience before the Lord.

Blessings brethren,

(P.S. Thanks Lazarus for allowing this detour in this thread!)


Mike Compton

 2007/9/8 17:38Profile

 Re: Capital Punishment & War


Lazarus1719 wrote:
The topic of war and capital punishment has come up lately on campus and I thought I would share my quick thoughts on it.

We must make a proper distinction between [u][b]individual relations[/b][/u] and [u][b]governmental relations[/b][/u]. This is vital to a proper understanding of the issue. Failure to make a distinction between individual relations and governmental relations would result in total anarchy and chaos.

[u][b]Individual relations:[/b][/u]

Mt 5:39 - But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Mt 6:14-15 - For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

[u][b]Governmental Relations:[/b][/u]

Romans 13:1-6 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves d**nation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. [u][b]But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil[/b][/u]. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

As individuals, we must overcome all vindictiveness, bitterness, hatred, revenge, etc.

But the government has a God ordained ministry to execute the wrath of the sword upon evildoers. The government is responsible for the protection of the community and so it passes good laws. And it is responsible for upholding those good laws. The purpose of punishment is to declare the value of those laws; thus the punishment must fit the crime. The punishment of law breakers is to uphold the laws that they broke. And those laws serve the purpose of protecting the community.

So on an individual level, we absolutely must forgive everyone. We will not be forgiven by God if we ourselves do not forgive others.

But the government has a God ordained ministry to protect the community, which includes passing laws and then upholding laws through punishment.

And so protecting the community requires sending criminals to prison as well as capital punishment for more serious offenses. A serious offense requires a serious punishment as a public declaration of the value of the law that was violated.

And since the government has the God ordained ministry of protecting the community and executing the sword, that includes going to war when absolutely necessary for the public good.

The community would not be save if the government did not pass laws and uphold laws through punishment; and the community would not be save if the government did not protect the community through war from foreign threats.

[color=663300]Good post and good backed up with scripture. I often wonder when we see the prophets of the Old Testament will be in heaven. When we read this fact and we can see from scripture that God said to them "Well done good and faithful servants and when we consider that David killed Goliath, Joshua faught battles, and Moses, and all the Old Testament prophets faught against evil and if it be displeasing to the Lord then why do we have this scipture?
Luke 13:28-30
28 "There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth,[u] when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.[/u] 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."
How did they get to heaven if it is indeed wrong to fight against evil and defend the helpless? Anyone care to explain that. It don't sound as if they got thrown out for fighting against evil to me?[/color]

 2007/9/8 17:51

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA


Chalk this one up to poor communication.

Or just misunderstanding, a common and unfortunate thing that happens here.

Moe, there is no reason to go that far either. Not willing to go back and be didactic over this but it appeared you were taking something said in general as personal and then making a somewhat slighted comment, an assumption of his perspective.

It is redundant to state it but it is not the particular opinions just the mannerisms and affiliated assumptions that can come about. As you said, you did not intend it but perhaps you can see where others didn't see it that way.

Mike Balog

 2007/9/8 18:03Profile

Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797



Compton wrote:
My kingdom is not of this world:

This week our litle girl told us about a Jehovah Witness classmate at school that is forbidden by her parents to say the pledge of allegiance. I was curious if perhaps some people here at SI feel the same way. (Maybe this question has been asked before.) Are there some SI brethren who believe it is wrong to join in the pledge of allegiance to the United States or any other state?

I'm not 'going anywhere' with this question...just curious. Perhaps such a 'poll' should be the start of another thread...


I wouldn't tell others not to, but I personally don't and won't. Why pledge to a flag when we can pledge ourselves to the Lamb?



 2007/9/8 18:04Profile

Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

--- I would not choose not to pledge allegiance to men of any earthly country, to obey their worldly laws, but have pledged to obey God to the benefit of all men, everywhere.

I pledge allegiance to my Savior
to fulfill His word in the land,
to love my brethren and my neighbor:
Preaching liberty in Christ alone
by grace through faith in His name.

Hebrews 11:10 - "he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God."

 2007/9/8 18:17Profile


What do you guys think of these two characters in the New Testament?

Revelation 11:5 - And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

It seems to me that they were given authority from God to kill their enemies with fire.

Likewise with Romans 13, the government has been given authority from God to execute the wrath of the sword.

And the same God of love also said: Luke 19:27 - "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."

I hope that we can all agree that our loving God will be holding public executions on Judgment Day.

The extend of my argument would be that [b]it's the [u]governments[/u] responsibility to protect the [u]country[/u] and it's a [u]Fathers[/u] responsibility to protect his [u]family[/u][/b].

 2007/9/8 21:37

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