Santa Cruz California
you are on the verge of condemning to hell whoever disagrees with your Calvinism.
I don't think I said that believing the doctrines of grace was the means to salvation brother. That would be heresy, as Christ alone is the way.
If you do not mind, I would like to ask you, does Jesus alone by faith through grace save a man, or must a man add works to the clean slate Arminians believe Christ made possible on Calvary. This really is all I am concerned about, its that men understand they are justified by faith alone, and that faith comes from God, and enables men to reach forth their hand to take the gift of Christ.
| 2007/9/6 15:51||Profile|
We are saved by grace alone through faith...no Arminian/Wesleyan etc. disagrees with this. And yet you continually say they do. No, you never said believing in Calvinism saves you, but more than once today you have strongly suggested that all non-Calvinists believe man "adds" something to the finished work of Christ...which is a condemning heresy.
| 2007/9/6 16:05||Profile|
| Re: Questions That Must Be Answered For the Arminian and Non-Reformed|
|WHY must these questions be answered?|
Reminds me of the story of the mother bear with her cub, who was just learning to walk.
"Mother", said the little one, Which foot do I put first?
Is it the front ones first, or the back ones first, or one front and one back, or all four together, or what?"
"Quit talking and just walk!" grunted the mother.
| 2007/9/6 16:08|
Quote:Hear Hear! Me too
Calvinist or Arminian...
reminds me of
Pharisee or Saducee
I am neither even though I believe parts of both camps doctrine. This is a false dichotomy though, wordly theology camps that I have seen many brothers dragged way off into error in both directions by. Give me a break, I reject both as a whole and accept some parts of each.
The kingdom of God is not in word but in power, the pharisees and saducees could not inherit eternal life through their doctrines and neither can Calvinists or Arminians.
In Christ - Jim
Amazingly profound Jim and I find myself in the exact same place in which you describe yourself. Thank you for these words of wisdom.
| 2007/9/6 16:11|
Quote:Yes, I don't understand why this false dichotomy is being forced on us. Who are these hypothetical "Armenians" who don't believe we "are saved by grace alone through faith"?
We are saved by grace alone through faith...no Arminian/Wesleyan etc. disagrees with this. And yet you continually say they do. ...more than once today you have strongly suggested that all non-Calvinists believe man "adds" something to the finished work of Christ...
I haven't seen any on this thread so far :-P
| 2007/9/6 16:14|
Santa Cruz California
We are saved by grace alone through faith...no Arminian/Wesleyan etc. disagrees with this
It is the doctrine of Arminians that Christ alone does not save anyone, but rather makes salvation possible, but man must maintain the work. This blurring of justification by sanctification is not Scriptural.
Also the belief of Arminians is that the faith which one is saved by comes from myself in response to the Gospel, rather than seeing that even the faith I have comes from God as a free gift and that faith automatically justifies us because of Christ. All of it comes from outside as there is nothing good within.
| 2007/9/6 16:15||Profile|
It is the doctrine of Arminians that Christ alone does not save anyone
Which Arminians? I've never met any that believe this...maybe this is "hyper-Arminianism" :-P
And it is not the "faith" of the man which saves him, nor the "faith" you claim is given by God...this is not a biblical concept. This confusion is however the modern American interpretation. It is only the grace of God through the shed blood of Christ that saves. Faith is just the "vehicle" through which God has decided to impart His grace. We must be very careful in how we read and use biblical terms.
| 2007/9/6 16:43||Profile|
Quote:Calv.s god creats specificaly for hell.
Quote:Either way brother, you have got to deal with this in the end. God creates people and they sadly perish.
How is it exalting Him when it makes Him creat only to destroy in hell?
The logicaly says that the ones going to hell are inocent because thay are only doing what they are created to do.
My theory has God creating man choosing which to go, heaven or heall.
\That makes man guilty for going to hell because they rebeled against the truth.
Quote:Your interp. of Romans 9 has God being a devilish tyrant!
So then it must be that God is a sovereign Creator who does what He will to whom He will. This is why in Romans 9, the verses that say he has mercy on whom He will have the "mercy" as a verb.
Romans 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
[b]2Tim 2:20-21[/b] [color=990000]But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor.
[b]:21[/b] If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, and fit for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.[/color]
Again, My God of the Bible lets man choose which vessel he wants to be.
Quote:My point was that you say that beciomming "born again" is not salvation, but it is what gives man ability to have faith to recieve Christ or a new heart in order to be saved.
I don't know where I have said this, because I believe the new birth is regeneration, and thus a man is given faith to stretch out his once crippled hand to lay hold of Christ. But this ability comes from God alone.
| 2007/9/6 16:56||Profile|
Logic makes many good points which have yet to be refuted.
The doctrine of Double Predestination makes the truth of Calvinism extremely plain.
What father would birth sons with the intended purpose of casting them into hell?
What father loves one son more than another for no reason?
What father hates a son from the moment he is born?
| 2007/9/6 17:12||Profile|
Bowmansville Penssylvania USA
but rather makes salvation possible, but man must maintain the work.
Tell me, who is it here that believes we must maintain the works to maintain salvation? I've never heard someone say that and I've known way more non-calvinists than calvinists. Do you too think that the book of James is an epistle of straw?! (I do happen to know that Luther recanted that statement later on in his life, so don't take that as a slam on Luther.)
These calvinism threads are insanity. Nothing but insanity. I'm out of this one, you all can hash this out if you want to. My view on scripture won't change so please let up on such militant attempts to make calvinists out of us all. Quite frankly, that's what's so offensive about calvinism. Not the "exalting of the sovereignty of God".
When one tries mowing over everyone with their theology it causes strife. Thus you have the offensiveness of calvinism.
| 2007/9/6 17:14||Profile|