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KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re: Wilkerson's False Prophecies

I do not have much time to go back and research false prophecies from David Wilkerson's books. Maybe I will in the near future, but can't right now. Especially since when I did read his books, I *was* (though since converted by an English teacher) not one for highlighting books, and I'm not about to reread so many pages to find them again.

Here are a few of my problems with Wilkerson that I can recall off hand:

1. "The Vision" seldom actually contains any of the numerous visions that Wilkerson actually claimed he had. Instead of actually telling what he actually saw, most the time he told his interpretation of what he saw. Occasionally, he let's the reader know what he saw, but, mostly not.

2. "The Vision" prophecies the unbiblical pre-tribulation rapture.

3. "Set the trumpet to thy mouth" does call America the actual prophesied Babylon of the scriptures. This shows a misunderstanding of who "mystery Babylon" actually is.

4. "Set the trumpet to thy mouth" is highly legalistic. While I believe in holiness, and a life without compromise, Wilkerson labels some things e.g. All TV and Secular Music as demonic. While not totally unscriptural that a lot on TV and on the Radio is bad, he should not broadbrush. Those tools can be used for holy use when one sanctifies something by means of the word of God and prayer.

5. If you even asked Wilkerson himself if he has made false prophecies in the past, he would admit it (as one person noted). All while pastor of Times Square Church. I've heard him on more than one occassion repent of various false prophecies (ones that I was not aware of). This is not exactly something that a pastor should be prone to do... which Wilkerson seems to do from time to time. False prophecies are hardly a minor matter. Yes, one can repent of them, and find forgiveness from God, but, if one simply says "guess that one was not from the Lord...hey everybody, I'm sorry for speaking something God didn't command me to speak, even though I said He did." That is only the surface. Jesus taught that out of the abundance of heart does a man speak... and if one is speaking false prophecies, it shows that this person's heart is a lot different than you might think.

6. Wilkerson denies being a prophet, but simply says he is a 'watchman' (as one person noted)...but can you show me biblically how they are different? In the Bible, a 'watchman' is another word used for 'prophets'. Isaiah and Ezekiel were rather fond of the title 'watchman.'

In general, these are my complaints.


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Jimmy H

 2003/7/31 16:59Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re: Point of Clarification

Quote:
It would seem to me the two terms "genuine Christian" and "false prophet" are mutually exclusive.



Let me clarify :) What I mean is that I have no doubt in my mind that Wilkerson has geniunely been born again of the Spirit, and I do not doubt he has a geniune call of God on his life. The book "The Cross and the Switchblade" bore much witness to my Spirit.

However...

I do not believe in all that he has been doing has been of God in the past 20 years. Frankly, while I've found his sermons to be usually good, I think he tries to play up the entire "watchman" role a bit, and has learned a style of preaching that makes him sound like he's just consumed with God. He's learned to sound like a thundering prophet of God (or at least, what most people would imagine one would sound like). This, mixed in with a cynical spirit, deceives many.

Many forget the story Christ told about the man with a log in his eye, and him taking notice of another man with a speck in his own. Many never seem to notice in that story, that the man with the log in his eye was still able to notice a geniune speck in someone else's! Yeah, the man with the log in his eye must remove the log in his eye before he tries to remove the speck in another... but many don't. Such persons who have the log in their own eye are cynics. Such persons can be accurate in their "discernment" (as they would call it).


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Jimmy H

 2003/7/31 18:10Profile
jeremyhulsey
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Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re: Set the Trumpet to Thy Mouth

To speak to the first question asked about Set the Trumpet To Thy Mouth; Wilkerson is hermenutically using the duality of prophecy from scriptures. The prophecie of the Bible, especially the apocalyptic ones, that David is using in the first chapter deal first with the days that they were given but also with a backdrop of foretelling the distant future.

As to the fall of the Soviet Union; Russia still exists with enough of her nuclear arsenal to destroy the world and certainly America. One of the closest calls we ever had with a potential nuclear holocaust was in 1995. Some American scientists launched an upper atmosphere rocket to test weather patterns over Northern Europe; however, due to miscommunication in the Russian millitary, the upper command did not know about this launch. They thought it was a potential missile strike from America. The briefcase with the Russian launch codes was opened and they came very close to launching untill the Russian Pres. decided to see what the missile on the Radar would do. Lukily its trajectory took it away from Russia.

As for words like "immenent" and "at hand", prophecies are repleat in the Bible with these statements, yet it was years before they were fulfilled.


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2003/8/1 2:03Profile
todd
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Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

I think that the following portion of an email I was sent today is very relevant to this discussion.

"Knowing the Times
After the 9/11 attacks, people poured into churches like never before in our history. Then, several weeks later, fewer people attended
church than before the attacks because they did not find the church or its message relevant to the times. However, God and those who are awake and staying close to Him will know the times. Those who are faithful seekers will soon experience a great increase of words of knowledge, words of wisdom, and prophecy to keep us ahead of the times.

In Matthew 16:2-3, the Lord rebuked the people for knowing how to discern the weather, but not knowing the signs of the times. When the
Lord used such metaphors it was because there was a relationship. Discerning the signs of the times is actually similar to understanding weather. As a professional pilot I had to learn how to discern the weather because my life depended on it. We are likewise coming to the point when our lives will depend upon our knowing the times.
One thing I learned early in my flying career was that I could not rely on the professional weather forecasters if I was going to be a safe
pilot. I was certainly thankful for the professional meteorologists who gave themselves to knowing the present conditions and making forecasts, but I had to know the weather myself and I had to be able to foresee conditions which
the professional weather forecasters might not see from their remote offices. This is true for Christians as well. We should be thankful for
those who are devoting themselves to knowing the times and we should listen to them. However, this does not negate our personal responsibility to know the times, and to know what the Lord is saying to us personally.

For a weather forecaster, the penalty for getting a forecast wrong was a bit of humiliation. For the pilots, who understand that the majority of aircraft accidents are weather related, the stakes are much higher. I therefore determined that I was going to know weather better than the professional fore-casters. I studied relentlessly, constantly making my
own observations, and talking to every experienced pilot or meteorologist that I could. My goal was to never be surprised by the weather conditions which I found en route or at my destination. We need to have this same goal
for understanding the times.

After a few years of flying professionally, I was so good at knowing the weather that I was rarely surprised by it on a flight. Now I
want to know the signs of the times so well that I am never surprised by what comes. At this time I am still far from this goal, but I am resolved to keep getting better. One of the ways I am pursuing this is by getting closer to those with the same devotion. I know the Lord would not have rebuked us for this if it were not possible to know the signs of the times better than we know the weather.

People still make jokes about the weather forecasters, but the truth is that in the thirty years that I have been involved in aviation,
weather forecasters have become amazingly accurate. It used to be rare for them to be accurate, but now it is rare for them to miss. Even so, I am amazed at how many people, especially among the older generation, have a
perception that weather forecasters are wrong most of the time. This is definitely no longer the case. I have watched with curiosity as some of these people seized a single missed forecast to re-enforce their opinion, not seeming to regard at all the overwhelming majority of amazingly accurate forecasts.

The same is happening to the church's prophetic ministry. It too is moving from a place of being a laughingstock to becoming increasingly
accurate. It will continue to do so until we rarely hear of a miss. Even so, the perception of many, especially among the older generation, will be that it is rarely accurate even when the reverse is true. This can be discouraging, but we must not let it be. We just have to keep getting better at knowing the Lord's voice. We also need to view every mistake as an opportunity to learn, and to humble ourselves knowing that the Lord gives His grace to the humble. We are going to need much more grace for what is to come."

 2003/8/1 3:25Profile
Jason
Member



Joined: 2003/3/15
Posts: 138


 Re:

I must add my 2 cents. I take it I am one of very few here that has actually met David Wilkerson and a good number of his family. All you have to do is talk to him and to his grandsons, and you will quickly find out that he is genuinely on fire -- the way he preaches is the way he lives. To quote one of his grandsons, "Grandpa doesn't love anything but Jesus." (That was stated with the understanding that this meant that he cared deeply for people as well -- don't take it out of context.) It is a fact that everything he does is with Christ in mind.

This should square with what some have already posted. As for [i]Set the Trumpet to Thy Mouth[/i], I think the book is tremendous. I am aware of a prophecy from the early/mid 1980s (not by Wilkerson) that the USSR would fall (then it seemed impossible) for a time (in which many would be free to enter for the cause of the Gospel) and then rise again stronger than before -- trapping many behind the iron curtain. I believe this will indeed take place -- the first part already has.

David still believes in his prophecies such as found in [i]The Vision[/i] and in [i]The Trumpet[/i]. The fact that they say "in a few years" shouldn't worry us -- let us recall that Revelation says that the things in it would happen "in a short time" (some of it did, some has been happening since then, and other bits remain unfulfilled). Also recall that the prophet rebuking Jereboam I announced the coming of a king named Josiah -- who came 250 years later, long after Jereboam's whole family had been eliminated. The prophecy surely would have been thought to come earlier.

Jeremiah and Ezekiel fought this problem when they prophesied, because people by then recognized that most prophecies didn't come to pass until well later -- so they paid them no attention. Both responded by saying that this time, the prophesies would actually be fulfilled within their lifetimes. Let us then realize that "a short time" or "a few years" may well be longer than we might think. Just think -- Jesus hasn't come back in 2,000 years even though it has been "the last days" since the time of Peter and Paul.

Now I agree that the pre-tribulation Rapture is unbiblical (it is actually very easy to disprove). Wilkerson has actually distanced himself from this interpretation over the last 20 years. Keep in mind that he has read and received the writing of George Warnock (who even spoke at two of Wilkerson's conferences), who is a strong opponent of the pre-trib rapture.

At the same time, [i]The Vision[/i] is actually presented in such a way that the section speaking on this subject (unlike the section in [i]Beyond the Cross and the Switchblade[/i], a book from 1974 not treated as prophecy, in which he shows his approval for pre-trib) does not present pre-trib as a part of the prophecy.

He actually says, "God has not promised to keep His children from suffering. He has not promised to keep us from facing an hour of need. We have no promise of world peace, tranquility, security, or continuous financial well-being. We are promised peace and security of soul and mind -- the supernatural provision for every true need -- and assurance that we would never have to beg for bread. ... I believe the prepared Christian is going to face a time of sorrow and tribulation. I believe he will be tested, tried, and tempted. I believe true Christians are going to witness many of the horrors described in this vision. But I am also firmly convinced in my own heart and mind ... that God is going to deliver His true children from His final fury that will be outpoured on the earth."

(Incidentally, I just found a comment upon opening [i]The Vision[/i] (1977) that I did not recall -- it also agrees with the prophecy that I mentioned above. Wilkerson writes: "God is bringing to pass a temporary truce between the East and the West for the express purpose of getting the gospel into these Communist countries. ... A tremendous move of the Holy Spirit in Finland can and will spill over into Russia. Ironically, while the doors are beginning to close on this side of the Curtains, the doors will begin to open on the other side. And, after a short period of freedom and spiritual awakening among many, the doors will suddenly close, and the persecution madness will begin with intensity and engulf all those nations." Just thought you might be interested.)

Anyway, I would have dealt more with [i]The Trumpet[/i] than [i]The Vision[/i], but I thought enough of it to loan it to a friend who is out of town at the moment, so I will not have access to it for a bit. At the same time, I think it is a tremendous book, and that David's prophecies will come to pass. I should also add that I agree with him on television and the spirit of his words on music -- if you are aware of his understanding of what "rock music" is, I don't think you would disagree with his statement. TSC plays some pretty upbeat stuff in their services. As I understand it, he is more concerned with the spirit of the world in "Christian" music, than the tempo of the music itself. On this, I agree -- as someone who has been around the "Christian" music industry for over a decade, I emphatically state that there are few bands who are legitimately producing "fruit demonstrating repentance." Unfortunately, CCM is so secularized that it is hard to get Christian "Christian" music.

As far as saying "the messenger" was the one who screwed the message up, consider that the Bible itself was passed through messengers -- the men who wrote and spoke it. If you are to say that today's prophets taint the pure message of God, then Scripture must also have that possiblity. You can't have it both ways. Either the Scriptures are indeed pure and the prophets of today speak equally true prophecy, or the prophets of today speak somewhat tainted prophecy and Scripture also. It is clearly the former rather than the latter. Let us not do as Israel and discount the words of prophets because they are not fulfilled in the time frame expected or perhaps in the way expected. Jonah opens up another can of worms that I don't want to get into here.

Sorry this was so long, but I think this is important because David Wilkerson is indeed a man of God and a legitimate watchman/prophet. Few are worthy to hold his sandals -- he has lived a life consecrated to God, particularly over the last 20 years.

The bottom line is that Wilkerson's message is pure (like Ravenhill's, Reidhead's, and others on this site) -- it is a message of repentance (those with hardened hearts say "legalism," just as those Israelites who would not follow their prophets), intimacy, and judgment. He has cried out against the message of peace and safety (which is the message of a truely false prophet). This follows the biblical model for the message of a legitimate prophet:

Jeremiah 28:8-9 The prophets who were before me and before you from ancient times prophesied against many lands and against great kingdoms, of war and of calamity and of pestilence. The prophet who prophesies of peace, when the word of the prophet shall come to pass, then that prophet will be known as one whom the LORD has truly sent.

May God's grace be upon the readers of this message, to give spiritual discernment and ears to hear.

 2003/8/1 3:25Profile
sdb
Member



Joined: 2003/7/4
Posts: 129
tucson

 Re:

Jason I second the motion......

 2003/8/1 9:22Profile









 Re:

Quote:
As far as saying "the messenger" was the one who screwed the message up, consider that the Bible itself was passed through messengers -- the men who wrote and spoke it. If you are to say that today's prophets taint the pure message of God, then Scripture must also have that possiblity. You can't have it both ways. Either the Scriptures are indeed pure and the prophets of today speak equally true prophecy, or the prophets of today speak somewhat tainted prophecy and Scripture also. It is clearly the former rather than the latter.



Jason,
There is a third option which is the one I choose to believe. That is that the Word of God is pure and untainted The prophets of old spoke in the power of the Spirit and what is recorded in the Word of God is true. What is spoken by supposed prophets today is NOT equal to the Word of God. I do not believe that there are prophets today in the same way as Bible times. Certain ministries have a prophetic voice, such as A.W. Tozer for instance, but persons who stand up in churches today(like Rick Joiner, Paul Cain etc.) and claim to be prophets from God I have very little faith in. I do not find all that "charismatic" mumbo jumbo as necessary to my faith or profitable. In fact, just the very opposite. This may upset certain members who are of the charimatic persuasion but it's true. I have nothing against charismatics personally. I was once heavily involved in the charismatic movement. However, I have found the majority of things taught among them damaging and largely responsible for the sleeping modern day church and lack of discernment in divine things.

As for Wilkerson being a man of God I have no doubt as to his sincerity and his personal godliness. However, he would bear more credibilty with me if he was to state things as his opinion and observations, like Todd's qoute about weather forecasting, then when he says "thus says the Lord" or "I had a vision from God". A couple of things that I find absolutely rediculous in "The Vision" is his claims about homosexuals introducing nude worship into the church. Also, his statements about the catholic church are a little wacky. Those are just a couple of things I feel take away from the credibility factor of the prohecies. Just because someone has a "vision" does not mean it came from God. It could be psychological or even something that occured while praying in tongues. Praying in tongues, in my experience, can lead to altered states of consciousness much like eastern meditation. I know because I have had out of the body experiences while praying in tongues for long periods of time. This is a dangerous realm and one that can open you up to many influences not necessarily from God. Jessie Penn-Lewis warns in her book "war On The Saints" of the dangers of a "passive" mind and how Satan and other influences can come in through passivity. Watchman Nee in his book on the Spiritual Man also warns of the same thing. I think that most charismatics who would read his book "The Latent Power Of The Soul", and would take it seriously, would leave allot of their practices behind. I am just speaking from over 30 years experience as a believer and one who has been there and done that!

In the arms of the Saviour,

Kevin

 2003/8/1 9:41
Jason
Member



Joined: 2003/3/15
Posts: 138


 Re:

First of all, I must express that I whole-heartedly agree with you on Rick Joyner, Paul Cain, and others who claim to be big-time prophets in the Charismatic world. I think by-and-large they are the equivalent of the 400 prophets of Baal. As I said before, few prophets will be visible, fewer will be received, and all of them will share a common message -- the judgment of God and the necessity for repentance.

At the same time, I must disagree with your distinction between the "prophets of old" and those moved by the (same) Spirit today. I am curious as to what would make the Spirit less powerful in inspiring his people today. I also disagree with your reference to the Bible as "the Word of God." If we truly believe the Scriptures are inspired (as I do), we will recognize that they say that [b]Jesus[/b] is the Word of God. [b]He[/b] was the "Word of the Lord" who came to the prophets in days of Old and gave them words from himself. Yes, it is semantics, but semantics are important in Scriptural matters. The difference comes in the understanding that Jesus is no more bound in giving a pure message now than he was in those days -- he is the Word of God, still living and active, sharper than a two-edged sword. The idea that he is less able to pass on a pure word today seems to indicate the opposite of what Scripture indicates -- that the Spirit is given in more abundance now than before.

However, even moreso than before, there are an abundance of false prophets -- this will continue to the end. 1 Kings and 2 Thess show us that these prophets are also sent of the Lord -- but for delusion rather than truth.

I think you recognize this from your experience, and this is a blessing. I have seen this firsthand as well. At the same time, we must not be turned from the true by the false -- we may as well follow the false if that is the case. (The dwarfs at the end of C. S. Lewis' [i]The Last Battle[/i] come to mind as those who have been "taken in" by the lie so badly that they can no longer be "taken out" to truth because of their fear of the false.) God still has a pure witness in the earth, but it is by and large hidden (like Elijah at the widow's house in Zarephath). I think George Warnock has a good view about these dark days in the world and especially in the Church: Where sin abounds, Grace abounds all the more ... this means that where there is the greatest darkness, God will work all the more to have a true witness.

The difficulty is in distinguishing the true from the false. The false is just as sincere, just as devoted, and just as "spiritual" as the true -- but the true will always share the message of the genuine prophets in Scripture.

As for that bizzare comment about homosexuals introducing "newd worship" -- we are very close. There are already homosexual "churches" all over the place, and they have had conferences that have been lascivious in every sense of the word. For all I know, this "newd worship" has already been done on a small scale. I do know from my research that it is very close -- all the pieces are very close to in place (much more so than in 1977 when the book was written).

We know that God has not withdrawn his Spirit in the Last Days -- it is much the opposite! He is pouring his Spirit out on those with a whole heart to hear him and follow him. He is also allowing a Satanic delusion to envelop most of the Church without whole hearts. This has been prophesied since earliest times, and we are seeing it in our day. Scripture warns about these days that we must stand firm all the more -- let us not be taken in by the lie, and let us not doubt the power of the Spirit of God in us because of the lie. To do either one would be spiritual suicide. God has not withdrawn, he has hidden himself in those with faithful hearts.

Grace and peace.

 2003/8/1 12:58Profile
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

Quote: "Wilkerson claimed that all these things would happen within a "few" years. The Vision was not an open ended prophecy as suggested but he made some very detailed prophecies and said all these would take place within a matter of a few years."

Here is What David Wilkerson says about the unfolding of the vision he had.

"Parts of this vision will come to pass in the very near future. Some of the events are more distant" (Introduction, The Vision, Jove Publishing 1977)

"Some of the predictions in this particular part of my vision will happen within the next few years. Other disasters predicted are still future but will surely come." (page 27)

Jeremy Hulsey


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2003/8/1 13:38Profile









 Re:

Quote:
"Some of the predictions in this particular part of my vision will happen within the next few years. Other disasters predicted are still future but will surely come." (page 27)



Nice disclaimer but I don't recall hearing any such thing on the original tape.

Kevin

 2003/8/1 14:24





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